Ep. 69 — 208 "Family" from Netflix's The Witcher (Part 3)

Mitch Fey from the US and Rob Pigott from the US join Alyssa for our discussion of Netflix’s The Witcher Episode 208 “Family”. Very important bits include: the evolution of Geralt, Yennefer, and Ciri throughout the season, Yennefer’s ‘Spider-Man 2’ arc, our opinions on the Voleth Meir plotline and its purpose in the story, the changes we would have made to this season, successes and opportunities in the adaptation, and what we’re looking forward to in the future of the Witcher Universe.

This episode is available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, and Stitcher.

Transcript

Cold Open

ALYSSA: Psst, hey! Don’t skip through the announcements on this episode. Please. There’s quite a few, but a tl;dr: apply to be a guest on the next two seasons at bit.ly/witcherguest56, fill out the 2022 listener survey at bit.ly/listenersurvey2022, Australia Hanza meetup in April 2023, and save the date for our Hanza holiday party on Saturday December 17th. All the links are in the show notes at breakfastinbeauclair.com and please listen to the announcements, but if you don’t, thank you!

ROB: And her relation–

SIRI: Sorry, I’m still not sure about that.

ROB: Welp, I–

ALYSSA: We haven’t had one of those in a while.

ROB: Microsoft–

SIRI: Sorry, I’m still not sure about that.

ROB: Oh my god.

MITCH: That’s hilarious.

ROB: What the fuck is–alright. What just happened?

ALYSSA: She hears you talking about Ciri, thinks you’re talking about her.

ROB: Okay. Um. Anyway.

ALYSSA: Um, wait.

ROB: Continuing.

ALYSSA: Cold open!

ROB: Cold open. So, anyway…

[Breakfast in Beauclair theme music by MojoFilter Media]

Introduction

ALYSSA: Welcome to Breakfast in Beauclair, a global Witcher Podcast. My name is Alyssa from GoodMorhen, and I’ll be your host as you, I, and our international hanza accompany Geralt of Rivia and his destiny, Cirilla of Cintra, across the Continent.

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[Breakfast in Beauclair Annual Listener Survey]

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[Hanza Holiday Party]

Speaking of the 17th, save the date for our Hanza Holiday Party on Saturday, December 17! Our community loves a good get together and you can join us for some fun at the Hanza Discord on Saturday the 17th at 7PM CET / 6PM GMT / 1PM EST / 10AM PST / 5AM AEST + 1. If you’re not already a part of the Discord, you can join at bit.ly/thehanzadiscord.

[Australia Hanza Meetup – April 2023]

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[Episode Details]

As for this episode, Mitch Fey and Rob Pigott from the US call in to conclude our discussion of Netflix’s The Witcher Episode 208 ‘Family’ and of ‘The Witcher’ Season 2 as a whole. Join us as we discuss the evolution of Geralt, Yennefer, and Ciri throughout the season, Yennefer’s ‘Spider-Man 2’ arc, our opinions on the Voleth Meir plotline and its purpose in the story, the changes we would have made to this season, successes and opportunities in the adaptation, and what we’re looking forward to in the future of the Witcher Universe.

In our mid-episode news segment, “Tidings from Toussaint,” Lars from Witcherflix shares new details about ‘The Witcher: Blood Origin’, future Witcher series, and the next releases from CD Projekt Red.

Without further ado, let’s get to our discussion of Netflix’s The Witcher 208 ‘Family’ (Part 3).

Discussion

[Breakfast in Beauclair stinger by MojoFilter Media]

ALYSSA (VOICEOVER): Hey everyone! Welcome back from the break. When we left off, Mitch, Rob, and I had finished our scene-by-scene discussion of ‘The Witcher’ Episode 208 ‘Family’ and are diving into our analysis of the season as a whole.

ALYSSA: Hey everyone, welcome back from the break. When we left off, Mitch, Rob and I had finished our scene-by-scene discussion of The Witcher episode 208 Family, and are diving into our analysis of the season as a whole. We've talked a lot about, of course, the episode. But when it comes to the season as a whole, that's something that I would love both of your thoughts on as well. You know as we talk about individual characters, as we talk about reasons for why this show in this season might have been adapted in the way that it was. Of course one of the central characters of the season, Geralt and Ciri. When Lauren Hissrich has talked about Geralt's relationship to Ciri, she says that he doesn't need to learn how to be a father because he's already learned that from Vesemir. So it's more about figuring out his actual relationship with this girl, if I'm paraphrasing her correctly. Whereas a lot of Ciri’s arc has been about, you know, kind of rediscovering herself outside of being a princess, who she is without all of this pomp and circumstance and power, inherent power from the throne. So what did you guys think about their storyline throughout the season?

MITCH: I really loved a lot of Geralt and Ciri in this season. I think parts of it were my favorite, parts of the entire season, especially that first episode, I think they do a great job of setting up a, a particular dynamic, especially with, we mentioned this earlier about how Geralt solves certain situations, especially in the first season where you know, he has to—he has to kill the vampire at the end of the first episode, and that's like, kind of frightening to Ciri, and she established a personal relationship with the vampire. I thought that was kind of a fun setup, it kind of shows that Geralt can be a bit scary sometimes. And maybe she shouldn't trust him. And the—the season is kind of about her learning to gradually trust him and gradually trust everybody in his life. That trust may be broken with Yennefer, but eventually, she learns exactly how to trust him, and maybe only him. And it'll be fun to see where she goes later on in earli–later seasons. But I think one aspect of Geralt's storyline that I really enjoyed was in the earlier parts of the season when he first learned that, Yennefer is dead, or supposedly dead. And there's that great reaction of him in the, like, early parts of the season where he looks so sad. He has to restrain his emotions, and I think there's some brilliant acting by Henry Cavill but um, it's kind of him like, putting things in the past and like him trying to focus on the future, and putting away past grievances for people and learning how to focus on the future for Ciri, because Ciri represents a future for him, not even for the world, but for him specifically. And I think, yeah, that's a great aspect of Geralt's character. I think Henry Cavill does such an amazing job with this role. I feel like everybody says that, so I don't—I won't add much onto that you, know.

ROB: Yeah, I mean, I hundred percentagree, Mitch, and I just say I feel like if season one was really carried by Henry and Anya Chalotra’s performances, I feel like season two was Freya Allan's. I really think she really came into her own and her arc, I think is the heart of the second season. But yeah, I—I really feel like Geralt and Ciri's relationship is the heart of not only this show but the books and Witcher 3. And so I really, really appreciate that they kind of took Ciri in a really great direction for her character. You know I mentioned earlier in this episode, she is really this girl who's had to grow up so quickly. And Geralt, I think, sees a lot of himself in her, even if he doesn't want to admit it, because he also was kind of forcibly taken and raised to be, you know, this witcher, you know, no child really should have to experience being put through these trials and then become basically this whole new being. And I—I think he definitely sees that a bit in Ciri. And he doesn't want that path for her. He wants her to be her own person and, and shape her own destiny. And I feel like this, this season is really him kind of realizing that destiny is more than just two people ending up together because of fate. It really is about shaping your own destiny. And I think Henry Cavill, I think really, in this season got to act with a capital A, even more in ways than he did in season one. Because I think he talked about this in interviews. Have you talked with Lauren and the writers, he wanted to have more dialogue as Geralt because that's how Geralt is like in the books. I think he does a really great job of conveying Geralt's pain and his hurt, and his anger, and his sometimes sense of vulnerability that we didn't necessarily see, for the most part in season one, a lot more here. And I think it's because of the writing. And I think it's also because of Henry Cavill's performance has evolved. And I just cannot wait to see how it evolves even further for both him and Freya. And Anya too, and Anya Chalotra. How all of their performances evolve into season three, which honestly can't come soon enough. I know they've wrapped up filming recently. Yeah, hopefully sometime early-ish next year, we'll get the premiere of season three of The Witcher.

ALYSSA: Yeah, and I do think when it comes to Geralt and Ciri, I'm glad that we got the whole season to explore their relationship. I will disagree with Lauren Hissrich, that I think it would have been nice to actually see Geralt figure it out and make mistakes. I think he was eerily calm throughout the whole season. And so I think that, even if he learned how to be a specific kind of parent from Vesemir, or if that was the parenting he was exposed to, I do think, like, especially given how often the two of them go head to head in terms of how they should handle things right? Eskel, how they handled Ciri's Elder Blood, how they handled her possession at the end. I think it would have been really interesting to see Geralt rebel against that a little bit more or struggle with that a little bit more, just because he and Vesemir are so different. So I—I would have liked to see that, I think in contrast to the overall vision for his character. But I do you like the fact that he did serve as a foil to Ciri at certain times, especially as like that guardian and that guide, of course, as she's struggling with the fall of Cintra, adjusting to being a witcher, living in this dirty gross keep, with these dirty gross witchers, and trying to manage, I think, her desperation, given the Elder Blood plotline. I do really enjoy their relationship in this season. I would have just liked to see I think even more out of Geralt's approach to it. But I did really enjoy Ciri’s discovery of herself and I think that coming back to Cintra, even in a dream is a really nice way to—to showcase how she's changed, and that she doesn't take these things for granted anymore.

ROB: Yeah, and it's something that only a TV show or something that only a film can really do in a way, a visual medium can really do in a way is to call back visually to previous locations from previous episodes and seasons, and really hit home for the audience what the characters are feeling. So seeing, you know, Cintra again, as an audience, and how it stands in such contrast to when we last saw it, and how it stands presently. I think that's something that this last episode does really well, of really getting you into the mindset of Ciri and seeing how hard it is for her to make that choice. And ultimately, why she does make that choice and making it feel earned. Both when Ciri initially decides to just be with Pavetta and Duny, be with her parents, and then when she decides to give up that life and go live in reality, go live with this imperfect but real family of dirty witchers and you know, struggling, which is—it feels earned. And I think that's the biggest compliment you can give a show like this, is that those character decisions and those emotions feel real and earned.

MITCH: Yenne—Yennefer in the books is very much like this, this powerful sure of herself person, that I feel like has a lot of confidence in certain areas. And once you take away her most, like, powerful possession, essentially, it kind of allows us to see different sides of her and learn different things about her, and how she may react to certain situations in more creative ways. It was probably a fun challenge for the writers to think of how Yennefer can solve certain problems without using magic. And I think that was an interesting conflict for this particular season. Once you take away her magic, she starts to realize like, okay, maybe my magic isn't the most important thing to me. What is important to me, what is— like, why should I keep on living essentially, very existentialist questions. But she does kind of go through this process and I think it helps with her conclusion at the end of this episode that she needs to help Ciri. Her life isn't really about her as much anymore, even though that was a big goal of hers in the last season, was to have a child, I feel like this cements that goal of hers. And again, it also just gives Anya Chalotra, opportunities to widen the performance. Make it more nuanced. And so I remember rewatching this episode and rewatching parts of this season thinking that I liked Yennefer a lot more in this season than I did in the past season. And I liked her in the past season quite a bit. I thought she was done very well. I think her character is pretty different in this show than she is in the books, but I don't think that's a bad thing, necessarily. When I'm watching this particular scene, she shows a lot of vulnerability to Geralt. It's more—more or less pleading to him, to let her help him which is not something she would have done in the last season, which I think is some good growth for her in this particular season. People may disagree with me, but I do— I actually did like that, that plotline.

ROB: Well, I'll say this, I finished Blood of Elves after season two ended. I didn't—when I was watching season two, I didn't know that Yennefer doesn't lose her magic in the books. So for me, I was coming in from just, as a regular viewer, right, someone who wasn't 100% familiar with, like, the books and the source material. And I thought the choice to take away her chaos, her magic in the second season, I thought that was fucking brilliant, to be honest. Like, it just raises the stakes. Because here's I— as you said, Mitch, she's a character who in the past season was so focused on being magical and honing her magic, and dealing with the consequences of being able to use magic, wield chaos. And now she has to deal with the consequences of the end of season one. And so her whole arc of season two is her, you know, going on this journey to be able to use magic again. And of course, she realizes that, like, her magic does not define her. Everything else that makes up her life, you know who she decides to be during this time where she doesn't have her magic, that's what ultimately defines her. And I know this happens later in the episode, but I love that at the end of the episode, the first use of her magic after she's gotten her powers is to heal somebody, to heal Coen. I thought that was a really nice touch, and I think it—it was like without a hundred percent spelling it out loud, I think it was a subtle way to kind of show Yennefer's growth, not just over the course of this season, but over the growth of, of both seasons so far.

ALYSSA: In my opinion, I didn't mind that her magic was taken away. I do agree with both of you. Like, I think that it gave one: Anya Chalotra, a lot of room to play with as an actor, which I think she's phenomenal. I definitely agree that like, I think the purpose of it, as you outlined, Rob was that we can really explore who she is without her magic. It's defined her, her entire life, ever since she was a girl and it's been you know, decades since then. So to have that suddenly taken away and to be forced to confront, like, her own selfishness I think, really feels like the crux of the season. I think the thing that I have much more reservations about is the actual Voleth Meir plotline, like the— the use of this creature and this demon as an easy way, like, for everyone to get what they want. For Fringilla and Francesca, for Yennefer. And I would love to have seen Yennefer do this on her own without having the external pressure of a demon that we’re just, like, only introduced to now. So I think it would have been much more interesting if a lot of that had been more internal.

MITCH: Yeah, essentially she's going through the—the maybe some of you already said this, but she's going through the Spider-Man 2 arc, where—

ALYSSA: No one has said that. 

MITCH: Yeah, and like—

ALYSSA: No one has said that but I'd love to hear more. Tell me.

MITCH: Well, like in Spider-Man 2, the Tobey Maguire ones, the—the good movies. He—he, like, loses his powers and he can't, you know, he can't climb walls and he can't swing from his webs. And essentially is why is because being Spider-Man has kind of ruined his life. 

ALYSSA: Yeah.

MITCH: And his whole life has been defined by being Spider-Man. So when Spider-Man has been taken away from him, he starts to live his own life as Peter Parker, and being Peter Parker makes him somewhat even happier as a human being rather than just being Spider-Man. And that's when his powers come back. That's when his sense of duty as being—of being Spider-Man comes back and he has to get his powers. And so his powers start working again. It's more of a thematic journey, rather than a literal plot-ish journey, which I feel like they went with on this season. And so it doesn't feel as metaphorical or thematic, I would say. It feels like it's tying into a larger plot, which I—I think people may find not as exhilarating, I guess. But it is kind of that Spider-Man 2 arc, and so I—I was thinking, because I agree I don't—I don't necessarily feel like the Voleth Meir plotline was extremely well handled, nor that I feel like I wanted it in this particular show. And I think Lauren even said this were, they just kind of wanted an antagonist for the season.

ALYSSA: And action.

MITCH: Yeah, specifically for this season. And I'm like, well, you had antagonists. And I feel like you could have distributed them more equally and it would have–

ALYSSA: Girl, that's what I was saying too.

MITCH: Like you had Rience there the whole time.

ALYSSA: Rience was enough. 

MITCH: Yes. 

ALYSSA: Rience could have been more than enough. He's batshit insane. 

MITCH: Yeah. 

ALYSSA: And he has an agenda. And I think that like Rience could have been enough for the entire season.

MITCH: I feel like you could have still had Yennefer lose her powers and the explanation could have been, oh, in the end of season one, she used so much fire magic that pretty much all of her chaos is drained away and she needs to, you know, she's caused so much death and destruction from her magic, and she needs to learn. Yeah, as well, as Rob was saying that she has to learn that all of that isn't exactly what defines her. And once she realizes that, she can get her powers back when she absolutely needs them and that's to save somebody in some perilous situation. I don't know.

ROB: Wait. So the Voleth Meir stuff is not in the books at all?

MITCH: No.

ALYSSA: No, no, no. Not at all.

ROB: Oh, wow. Okay, that's so interesting. Huh.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: Because for me, I mean, how I saw Voleth Meir was basically, she is a plot device that's basically trying to unite like the three kind of disparate storylines and connect them in a way, and that's Yennefer storyline, Fringilla's storyline, and Francesca's storyline. And kind of unite them, and this is—and this—I'm—I'm coming from the film, television writing structure, screenplay structure, like, storytelling background here, of like, the way I saw Voleth Meir, and why, I guess, maybe I didn't have as big of a problem with it, is maybe as you both did was, it felt like an interesting way to— yes, it definitely is a, Voleth Meir is a plot device. And ultimately, like, she even kind of like teases, like further plot devices at the end of the—at the end of the episode. But even for me why I was like, ultimately, like fine with the execution of Voleth Meir, was because she revealed a lot of personal stuff from the characters, like Fringilla, Francesca, and Yennefer, in a way that I thought was, I thought, really interesting, and I think was handled in a way that allowed the audience that aren't super familiar with these characters to kind of learn more about them, in kind of a more visceral and personal way. I also want to say, like, shouts out to Freya Allan, for her portrayal of Ciri and Ciri possessed by Voleth Meir this episode. 

ALYSSA: Oh, yeah.

ROB: She was so good.

MITCH: I'm sure she had fun with that. 

ROB: Oh, yeah. So much fun. This is probably my favorite episode of her as Ciri so far. She played all these different sides of Ciri really well. And I think um, I think really this episode is gonna be the big jumping-off point for the Ciri that everyone knows and loves from the later books and the games.

ALYSSA: Yeah, I—I do agree with, like, the purpose of what Voleth Meir is probably there to do. But I think as we see toward the end of the episode, I think Ciri is enough, like Ciri has always been the key to all of these different plot points from the monarchs to the elves, to obviously Geralt and Yennefer, and all of their companions. So I think that you know, at the end of the episode, that they really drill that down with the cuts all around the continent. I feel like we could have had the loss of Yennefer's magic, and still had a different antagonist for this season.

ROB: Sure. But yeah, I mean Jaskier, I'll—I'll be honest, Jaskier, his whole plotline this season was my least favorite part of the season. And I feel like, you know, he had some good scenes in the epis in the episodes earlier on in season two. I feel like this episode, he's just there to be there. And this is not because I dislike Joey Batey, he's great. I really like him as Jaskier, I really liked him in season one as Jaskier. I hope that in season three, they find better ways to integrate him into the plot of the show because I feel like he really is just mostly useless in this episode.

MITCH: And I do feel like we like, at least we have to look at Jaskier as a character. And I feel like the show kind of acknowledges that he is useless, at least in this situation. 

ROB: Yes.

MITCH: Because—

ROB: Absolutely.

MITCH: —Jaskier at the end of the day, he is kind of just the bard, who retells all these stories and makes himself sound more significant. Like, again, they probably just ran into a thing where it's like, well, Jaskier is still in Kaer Morhen, and we can't just not have him not in the episode. So we have to find something for him to do. And it just kind of ends up being that he forces humor into places that doesn't need humor. I think a lot of his humor earlier in the show works for me, but I—I just felt like it was not an appropriate time for him to be saying these things.

ROB: Yeah, he had a couple of good moments later on, like a couple of like, you know, like decently humorous lines. But you know, but I feel like overall, yeah, I—I hope for future seasons, for—especially for season three, they—they figured out a way to kind of integrate him better into Geralt and Ciri and Yen’s story. And honestly, if there is no place for him, just— just leave him out. You don't have to force him in just because he's a fan-favorite character.

ALYSSA: Well, we do hear at the end of the episode that Dijkstra and Philipa do have plans for the bard. And if it is anything like, you know, Blood of Elves, if we're circling back around to some of those plotlines, we'll certainly see more of him as a Redanian asset in season three. So I think there is definitely the potential or opens the possibility that he might have slightly more purpose in next season as well.

ALYSSA (VOICEOVER): Before we continue our discussion, we’re going to hand it over to Lars from WitcherFlix for recent news on the Netflix show. When we come back, Mitch, Rob, and I will continue our discussion of ‘Family’.

“Tidings from Toussaint”

[“Tidings from Toussaint” theme music by MojoFilter Media]

LARS FROM WITCHERFLIX: Hey, it's Lars from WitcherFlix and this is "Tidings from Toussaint". Welcome back everybody. We are only a few weeks away from the release of the first Witcher spinoff series on Netflix. ‘Blood Origin’ will consist of four episodes and will premiere on Netflix on the 25th of December.

Last week Netflix released the first actual trailer for ‘Blood Origin’. It not only features new looks at the new characters, but also gives hints about the big role the Conjunction of the Spheres will play in the show. In the trailer we meet an evil empire, a society in the elven realms in turmoil, and we have our first looks at the monsters that will enter the world that will one day be the world of the Witcher. And, of course, we finally meet Jaskier again who is again played by Joey Batey.

In an interview with Screenrant, showrunner Declan de Barra confirmed that three elven characters from the Witcher books will make an appearance in the spinoff miniseries ‘Blood Origin’. Eredin (commander of the Wild Hunt), Avallac’h, and Ithlinne, the prophet who saw the end of the world. The showrunner talked about Avallac’h and Eredin "painting them from their baby stages, when they’re still quite innocent, and they haven’t been corrupted yet, and they become these multi-layered dark creatures in the games and the books and the [main Witcher show]." About Ithlinne, showrunner Lauren Hissrich has the following to say: "Ithlinne’s prophecy is all over the Witcher series, but it’s often talked about as this kind of folkloric thing. And so, even though we are told that we should believe it... If the people in the universe themselves don’t believe it, why should I, the viewer, believe it and how is it going to impact Ciri? We go back, we meet Ithlinne as a young woman, and we watch her prophecize, and then we watch that come true with our own eyes. And, to me, that will lend so much credence to what we are going to watch Ciri go through in the main series." While Young Eredin will be played by Jacob Collins-Levy and Ithlinne by Ella Schrey-Yeats, Avallac’h's actor is still unknown.

On the rumors front there is something to report as well: According to Redanian Intelligence, we know a little bit more about about one of the planned Witcher spinoff shows. Redanian Intelligence reports that this show is supposed to focus on the story of the Rats, the gang of young criminals in Ciri's storyline that we are about to meet in Season 3 of The Witcher main show. The series’s working title is simply ‘Rats’ and it is supposed to be filmed in South Africa starting in the first half of next year. Moreover the showrunner of ‘Rats’ is supposed to be Haily Hall. She is no stranger to the Witcher as she has written three episodes already for the main show, including the Season 1 episode "Rare Species" (the one with the Golden Dragon), as well as the Season 2 episode "Turn Your Back" (the one introducing Rience). Unfortunately, Redanian Intelligence doesn't say what exactly the show will focus on, wether if it will explore the Rats' origin before Ciri meets the group or if they will adapt their time with Ciri in between Seasons 3 and 4.

Moreover, the first producers and actors from The Witcher main show opened up about Henry Cavill's departure. Showrunner Lauren Hissrich talked about this matter in various interviews: "That’s the thing—there’s a lot of talk and rumors about and we fully understand why fans are going there. What I will say is please come back for The Witcher Season three so that we can continue to do this. Obviously, [Cavill’s departure] is huge news. […] What I’m excited about is that we are allowing this franchise to continue growing, and that we get new energy and chemistry that we haven’t discovered yet. And to me that’s part of the fun of television; you don’t know where exactly the adventure is going to end. So it’s something I’m really excited about." In an Interview with Culture Crave, Joey Batey (Jaskier) talked about Henry Cavill leaving and Liam Hemsworth as the new Geralt. "[Liam's] diving headfirst into this and taking it so seriously with his research and training and things like that. We’ll miss Henry an awful lot, but Liam’s gonna bring something new and fresh and different to it."

If you can't wait for ‘Blood Origin’'s release on Christmas and you already want to delve deep into the Witcher world again, CD Projekt has got you covered: On December 14, the big next-gen update for The Witcher 3 is finally released. The company revealed that there will be alternative outfits for Jaskier and Nilfgaardian soldiers that are based on Netflix's ‘The Witcher’. Among other things, Geralt will be able to obtain two pieces of armor from the Netflix show via a newly created quest line that will take place at the previously unused Devil's Pit in Velen. Oh, and Doug Cockle, Geralt's English language voice actor, will return as well. As you see, there is a lot to look forward to, especially as this update will be free for everyone who owns The Witcher 3.

Anyway guys, that's it for me for today. I hope you all stay safe and well. We'll talk again in the next episode of Breakfast in Beauclair. Until then, thanks again for listening and good luck on the path!

[“Tidings from Toussaint” theme music by MojoFilter Media]

Discussion

ALYSSA (VOICEOVER): Hey everyone! Welcome back from the break. When we left off, Mitch, Rob, and I were discussing our overall thoughts on ‘The Witcher’ Season 2.

ROB: I think all of season two, what I loved the most about season two was it humanized all the characters that we kind of were introduced in season one, it just deepens them and forces us to really get to know them more as people, and sometimes it's sides of them that are not good sides. 

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: And I really appreciate that they didn't shy away from sometimes having Yen be unlikable. Because historically female characters, especially in fantasy, like, you know, are portrayed as either completely wonderful and angelic or just complete evil or awful. And I think Yen, and I think the Witcher in general does a great job of portraying all of its female characters with a lot more nuance than that.

ALYSSA: Yeah, I think the interesting thing about this decision, away from the books, is that it's almost a role reversal of the relationship between Geralt and Yennefer. If you guys remember in chapter five of Blood of Elves, we get the dear friend letter.

ROB: Yeah.

ALYSSA: Geralt is in the doghouse with Yennefer. After not reaching out to her for two years after the Battle of Sodden. He's the one who comes to her and you know, asks her to train Ciri after he's already asked Triss. And she comes to the Temple of Melitele, specifically to train Ciri on goodwill or out of love for Geralt. And also the belief that you know, she would be the best teacher for her. The interesting thing here, as we outlined is that, it's not Geralt who's in the doghouse, it's Yen. So there has never been a point in the books that Geralt has been the one– well, at least not yet, right? –that Geralt has been the one who has been angry with Yennefer betrayed by her. However, that's kind of what happens here. I think I'm open to the changes and I do think that given what we saw on the show, the conclusion is a very natural conclusion, that Yennefer now has to, to redeem herself, as you both have said it just—it's just different.

ROB: That kind of sums up I think season two, is it's just different from the book, you know, it's not the book. It really isn’t. I mean there definitely are moments from the book for sure, but it's not the book. It's kind of influenced me on whether or not I kind of want to wait until the show ends before I read the rest of the books or not. Because I know that at this point, while they're kind of following the basic spine of the book, they're definitely doing a lot more different things, and just kind of following their own plotlines, in terms of these characters from the book. 

MITCH: Yeah.

ROB: At least that's what it seems like, to me. And I—I think that's a good thing because I feel like there's two types of adaptations, those that are faithful to the letter and those that are faithful to the spirit. And I think The Witcher is the latter. And that's why I feel like it's been so successful because it is faithful to the spirit of the books, but it's not afraid to make changes and deepen characters like Yennefer, like Francesca, like Fringilla, and even like Ciri, at least in this point in the books, you know, compared to the source material.

MITCH: And the source material is, I wouldn't say it's aggressively, maybe that's too strong of a word, but they're very polished. And I don't really think that's a bad thing. That's actually one of my favorite things about the novels, but like in the Blood of Elves, like the first 40 pages are just a bunch of people arguing about what exactly happened at the battle of Cintra and where Ciri is. And while I do feel like that is really fun. And that's kind of what I really love about the books– 

ALYSSA: Yeah.

MITCH: –I can also understand that that kind of art is kind of unique to novels, and prose, specifically in dialogue. Sapkowski loves to write these extremely long dialogue blocks that are very fun to read, but I don't know how fun they are to listen to. And—

ALYSSA: Yeah.

MITCH: —that's kind of like, once you—once you like, completely change your medium, those things start to blur. Obviously, everybody has their own adaptation of what The Witcher should be in their head when they're reading the book. But I can— I can see why they—they s—they read the Blood of Elves, and they were like, okay, we see that there is a story here that is strong, but it doesn't have a very—it does not have a structure that fits itself well to American television. Now, you may say that's stupid, and we shouldn't be pandering towards, like, American TV forms, I guess. And I think that's fair. But you know, I think that for what they set up to do, I thought it was executed, pretty alright. And I wouldn't say it was executed superbly, but I admire what they were at least trying to do. And I think that they definitely succeeded in a lot of remarks. So I'm never one to really latch on to certain things in a book. Film is just a different medium. Like if you read Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, like, that's just not the same thing as Blade Runner.

ROB: Oh, no.

MITCH: They are two very different things in my mind, like Blade Runner is like a “movies movie:. It may be based off of a book, but it is very much a movie. And I think if you adapt a book, and you can certainly embrace certain things about the medium of a novel, but you also have to embrace the medium that you're putting it into. And I think that causes a lot of changes in adaptations.

ALYSSA: Yeah, absolutely. And I actually wanted to ask you guys that as a wrap-up question as well. Like, why do you think some of the changes were made? And what do you think was, like, really successful about this season when it came to adapting it for television?

ROB: It's a really good question. I feel like this season really worked for me, having it work as an adaptation, because it wasn't afraid of going on its own route, compared to the book. But really, it—it set out this goal of furthering the storyline, introducing some new characters like Francesca, who are—who's in the book, but new to the show, and deepening the characters that we already know and we kind of only got sketches of in season one, and really kind of establishing the beginning of the relationship between Ciri and Geralt. Because I feel like, once again, I hadn't read the short stories, but I know in season one, Geralt and Ciri don't meet ‘til the very last moment of the very last episode. Obviously, that doesn't happen in the books. So I feel like, in a way, to the people that were expecting, I think somehow for the show to be more faithful to the books, because it was just they were adapting like one novel now instead of a bunch of short stories. I think, you know, I understand their disappointment. But at the same time, I feel like there's no way that they could have just adapted the book the way that it's written, and have it successfully continue the things that they set up at the end of season one. Season two, I felt, like was so successful, not just in the terms of its production being increased, budget, cinematography, and the special effects to be so much better than season one. But I feel like to me why it was so successful in the adaptation process, is because the writers and, you know, Lauren as a showrunner, wasn't afraid to take the things from the book that worked, use it as plot points in the show and use characters from the show, but really just focus on this goal of deepening our characters that we met in season one, and really having this season be focused on establishing the relationship between Ciri, Yen, and Geralt. Because obviously, that's really the heart of The Witcher, of the whole series.

MITCH: And yeah, if we—I mean, if we look at, like how this show is being adapted, again, so these books were written, you know, probably about 25 years ago, I think they're, like, early 90s novels. And they're written by, you know, Andrzej Sapkowski, a Polish man. And, you know, this show is being adapted by an American woman, which is, you know, probably not a—world's difference, but quite a bit different. And so, of course, Lauren is going to—I would, I would hate to tell Lauren, you know, an artist in her own right to not really add anything else to this, you know, not put her own personality into it. Like, I just don't think that's in good faith. You know, Lauren's her own person, she's going to bring her own experiences and her own personality, and her own, like style and taste into this. Like, it's impossible for that to not happen. Like even in the most faithful adaptations—

ALYSSA: Yeah.

MITCH: —that you can always sense that it was made by somebody else, even in the Lord of the Rings adaptations, which a lot of people feel is an—is a very faithful adaptation. There are just so many Peter Jackson-isms in those movies that are just so Peter Jackson. And it is— it is so, like, you just can't take that away, essentially. And when we read a book, it is a very personal journey. And we interpret it through our own lens, we're just seeing a book that's interpreted through somebody else's lens. And so sometimes when we see things that are different, it seems like our own lens is getting personally attacked in some way. I mean, that may not be completely true, but we just have a very personal image of how things should go. And when those things don't happen, we sort of start to feel betrayed in some way. And I always feel that those images are somewhat vague, and indescribable. And I think that's what's really special about reading a novel, you know, iIs that these worlds are kept to your own imagination, and they amplify your imagination. That's the strength of that medium. The strength of film is showing somebody else's imagination, and showing how great their imagination can be. And if we embrace that, I think that's why film is such a great art form for empathy, because it's like we can see into somebody else's vision, essentially. And it's very fun to kind of or, you know, if you want to project the auteur theory, many people's vision and many people's inputs—

ALYSSA: Yeah.

MITCH: —and you can kind of see that this was like a work of many people. And when you start judging it that way, I think it kind of frees up your mind a bit. All these like expectations of something else kind of goes away. And I think it's very fun to watch stuff like that.

ALYSSA: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that actually answers one of the other questions I was going to pose to both of you. I feel like a lot of Blood of Elves, and I recognize that this might be a problem coming from a filmmaker's perspective or from a studio perspective. There's not a lot of spectacles—

MITCH: No.

ALYSSA: —in Blood of Elves to—to really draw from.

ROB: No, not at all. 

ALYSSA: I don't often like openly critique a lot of the show on the podcast, but I think one of the critiques that I've had throughout the season, aside from the way that the villain arc could have been better structured, is there are points where it feels almost afraid to like not have action, to like really lean into the politics and into the core conversation, and the core, like, psychology to a certain extent. Like I know that like not—and this is definitely a personal, personal preference. So thank you for outlining that too, Mitch. Because I was like, ah, yes, this is—this is my expectations being attacked. But it was really about like I—I've been very expressive that I love shows like Bridgerton. I've been enjoying House the Dragon, like, for what it is, even with someone without a ton of, like, Game of Thrones knowledge. And a lot of those things let the, the politics breathe, I think, and the discussions breathe. And I think that given the pace of, of what The Witcher has set out to do, how many storylines they have, how much action they want to include in the season, I feel like a lot of that was shifted to the wayside. And I'd love to hear some of your thoughts on it like, again, as both of you as, like, editors, as writers, and as filmmakers yourselves, what do you think about the need for some of those changes?

ROB: I totally understand, like your perspective, because I feel like the success of shows like—not even just Game of Thrones, but shows like The Expanse, even the new Lord of the Rings show on Amazon, they have a lot of dialogue scenes where you are just kind of with these characters, learning more about the world, about the political situations. And I feel like season one had a good amount of those scenes, season two definitely had less of them. And I think that's because at least in my view, as someone who hadn't read Blood of Elves before the season, I think to me, because it felt like they wanted the focus to be less on the world in season two, and more about deepening the characters. It'll be interesting based on the scenes that kind of close out this episode for all of our characters, as we kind of cut across the different, you know, kind of storylines that are kind of wrapping up. It'll be interesting to see how much of the political situation they thread more into season three because it feels like they're going to focus on that a lot more in the next season, with the scenes that kind of end the season with setting up the Brotherhood and kind of introducing Queen Meve and the machinations between Dijkstra and Philippa. And—and obviously, you know, everything with Nilfgaard. So I—I feel like, to your point about them kind of losing, you know, the threads of the politics and having more scenes of those and letting them breathe a bit more. I think season three is going to be more of a focus on that just based on what it seems like they're setting up at the end of this season. I could be a hundred percent wrong. And I haven't read Time of Contempt. But it seems like to me that's what they're kind of setting up, is kind of having Ciri and Geralt in the end now be these targets for these larger political machinations that are happening in the background of this kind of personal story of the trio.

MITCH: Yeah, I've always kind of seen the story of The Witcher as a bunch of like, political figureheads, like arguing about petty things, especially Ciri. And the only real person, well, there's Yennefer standing in the way as well, but the main figure standing in front of them is just some guy who has no political savvy, or, you know, he's just like, Geralt, he is very strong, but he—he is just some dude in the end. But I feel like this goes into a lot of different conversations on how, especially American, media is structured, or formed. Yeah, ‘cause it's like, I could definitely tell in this season as well, that a lot of it—a lot of what was happening is there to drive the plot forward, or to, there to reveal character, stuff like that. And what's fun about, I think Blood of Elves is not a very eventful book, because you know, for a large portion of it, it's just Geralt, either in a caravan, Triss is sick, Geralt is arguing about neutrality, once again. I think those things are really fun. I think every TV show could improve with, kind of, embracing the kind of monotony in certain conversations in life, you know. How—I think when we see our characters kind of live in a way that is not driving anything forward, we can kind of connect with them more, we can kind of see them as real people. So when they're in danger, or when they're in conflict, we can probably get more invested. And I feel like that has been something that has been somewhat there in the—in these two seasons. But I feel like it's something that I feel can increase because that's what I really love about the books, is that it is definitely not afraid to slow down to—to a halt. That's not a bad criticism. I feel like I am more accepting of that than others, but I do appreciate it when— yeah, things do that. And as for politics, yeah, I— I agree with Rob in having read the books, and especially Time of Contempt, I feel like if we want more politics, I feel like the next season will probably provide that, especially with getting Geralt involved in said politics.

ALYSSA: So as we close out this episode, and as we kind of like teeter toward the end of Breakfast in Beauclair season four, we still got Blood Origin, so we have a few more episodes left. What are you guys looking forward to, I guess for season three of The Witcher, and if as a bonus, for Blood Origin?

ROB: Well, Blood Origin. I'm looking forward to Michelle Yeoh being in a fantasy show. 

MITCH: Oh, totally. 

ALYSSA: Oh, my God. 

ROB: Because Everything Everywhere All At Once is my favorite movie of the year. I've seen it four times now in, in theaters. And I love that movie. And I've always loved Michelle Yeoh. But I feel like that was the first movie I've seen her in, at least American-wise, that she actually had a complete character and wasn't just an action star. She really got to act in that movie. And I can't wait to see her hopefully have that in, in Witcher: Blood Origin. I know there's been a lot of behind-the-scenes stuff with that show, and a lot of reshoots and re-edits. So I hope that shows good. But even if it's—if it's disappointing, I just hope that Michelle Yeoh gets to not only kick ass but also like, have a—have a good, like, character arc and have some quality scenes.

MITCH: I mean, obviously, I'm very much looking forward to season three, especially after watching so many fantasy television adaptations. Obviously, we have, you know, like the Game of Thrones stuff, which has great character writing. And, you know, we're getting these, this new Lord of the Rings show, we're getting, we got the Wheel of Time, probably about—about a half a year ago. So the market is quite saturated. And what I do like about this show, what I feel like it's been able to accomplish pretty well is I think all the characters are pretty well established. Like, interesting and I really love the main cast of this show. I love Henry Cavill and Anya Chalotra, and Freya Allan, and Joey Batey. And I— I love watching them go along this adventure. And it's fun seeing what they'll do next, especially with these versions of the characters that they've created. I'm excited for that.

ROB: Yeah, The Witcher, I think, as a fantasy show, it's just— it's fun. It's a fun show. It doesn't take itself super seriously all the time. The characters, you know, they curse, and they—they sometimes act maybe a little bit more modern in some ways than other characters in other fantasy shows. And I think it adds a layer of relatability to them. And I think season three, hopefully, we'll continue that and— and deepen and expand the characters and their storylines in the same way that season two did. And I mean, I—I guess I would have to ask you two since you've read the books, do you think season three is going to be more faithful to Time Of Contempt? If it's going to be less faithful? What are your thoughts on what you think is going to be adapted? I—I feel like a lot of book fans, maybe were kind of disappointed that a lot of Blood of Elves isn't there, you know, and we kind of talked about why that is. But for Time of Contempt, I know that, I think Lauren said that's her favorite book. And she wants to, you know, adapt it well. So I'm just wondering, do you two think it'll be more faithfully adapted? Do you think it'll still be, like, loose like season two was? Or what are your, kind of, thoughts?

ALYSSA: So I think based on what we've heard, at least, about casting. I think it has the potential to follow Time Of Contempt. You know, obviously, whether or not well, we'll see. But I think that there are very specific plot points in Time Of Contempt as well as the beginning of Baptism Of Fire that I think we actually might see in season three. So I guess, yeah, we'll see. But I think that you know, to your point, even if I didn't agree with, like, every decision that was made this season, as a lot of it did diverge from the books, I think that the end of the season and specifically the last, like, 10 minutes of episode eight seem to prime the series for season three in a very specific way. And I'm very curious to see the— the plotlines that we've already seen outlined with Geralt, Ciri, and Yennefer, of course, with the Northern Kingdoms, with the Elves and Nilfgaard. And then with Rience and Lydia, for example. I think that we're in a good place. As we wrap up the season of, as I said The Witcher, and getting close to the end of the season in Breakfast in Beauclair, that's where we're going to end the episode for today. And Rob and Mitch, thank you guys so much for joining us for this episode. And thank you to our Hanza for listening. So where can people find you both? And is there anything that our community can help you with or anything that you'd like to share with them?

ROB: You can find me on Twitter at @DrPiggott and you can find my game studio Lookout Drive games on Twitter @lookoutdrgames. We could not fit drive in the full handle. If you want to follow updates on our game, Bitter Silver, you know I will definitely say that, like, The Witcher is, like, the show, the books, and the games are definitely big influences on me in terms of, like, character writing, and how well a genre you know, the fantasy genre, tropes are kind of handled and subverted, and the characters of The Witcher, and I feel like for Bitter Silver, even though it's obviously not really inspired by The Witcher, I feel like Sapkowski's and CD Projekt’s stories and—and Lauren’s stories and her writer’s stories in the show, I think all have influenced me as a writer for sure. So if you're interested in the game, if being a cool space bounty hunter, tracking down bounties while they try to figure out, finding info for a mysterious curse that's plaguing their whole life. You know, if that premise sounds interesting to you, if you'd like, you know, visual novels, and yeah, follow Lookout Drive Games on Twitter and play the Bitter Silver demo, and I'd love to hear your thoughts. And yeah, I just want to say again, thank you, Alyssa, for putting on a quality show and another quality season of Breakfast in Beauclair. It was so cool. I don't know. I'm sure you've talked about this. I know you have. But it was so cool for you to get that shout out from Lauren.

ALYSSA: During the season two premiere?

ROB: Yeah. Yeah, that was really lovely. And I—I really hope one day, you can have her as a guest on the podcast. 

ALYSSA: Yeah, fingers crossed.

MITCH: So you can find me on Twitter mostly at @MitchFey. That's Fey,  F E Y. And right now, I—this has taken me an entire year to record, but I just finished recording a 17-episode podcast about Full Metal Alchemist 2003. It was 2003, not Brotherhood if you like those shows. Full Metal Alchemist 2003 is probably one of my favorite TV shows ever. Obviously, I recorded 17 episodes on it. But I'm in the process of editing at least the first few episodes now. And hopefully, I'll have some release when this episode airs. But it's called Scenes from Central which is I—I picked up the alliteration from, from your show Alyssa.

ALYSSA: Oh, really? 

MITCH: Yeah. I—I liked I liked how Breakfast in Beauclair had a nice little punch to it, you know. So Scenes from Central. Central's a city in the Full Metal Alchemist universe. But the podcast is just me and my friend Jacob, known Jacob for years now, so we have a very natural rapport together. If you like listening to me talk about random things from the two episodes of this podcast that I've done, and you want to listen to me more, a lot more, probably too much. You'll probably be a bit tired of me. We have, I think, we've created a pretty fun show together. And we have come up with a lot of insightful things to say about this random anime from 2003 that holds a very special place in my heart. I'm excited to get those episodes released.

ALYSSA: Oh, congratulations. That's so exciting. And I'm glad that, that the show at least had like an even a small part in, like, inspiring you. But yeah, and thank you both so much. I'm so glad I was able to have you both on for this episode in the season. I reached out to you guys specifically to close out the season because I so wanted your insight as, as I said, editors, filmmakers, writers yourselves and I'm so glad that we got to talk about all of this too. Next episode. Join me and Lars from WitcherFlix for a special Christmas episode as we discuss our final thoughts on The Witcher Season Two and look ahead to the Witcher Blood Origin, The Witcher season three and to the future of the franchise at Netflix.

ALYSSA (VOICEOVER): Next episode, join me and Lars from WitcherFlix for a special Christmas episode as we discuss our final thoughts on ‘The Witcher’ Season 2 and look ahead to ‘The Witcher: Blood Origin’, ‘The Witcher’ Season 3, and the future of the franchise at Netflix.

Outro & Credits

[Breakfast in Beauclair theme music by MojoFilter Media]

ALYSSA: Thanks for joining us at the breakfast table! For show notes, transcripts of each episode, and a complete list of our social platforms and listening services, head over to breakfastinbeauclair.com.

Breakfast in Beauclair is created by Alyssa from GoodMorhen. It’s hosted by Alyssa with the “Tidings from Toussaint” News Segment by Lars from WitcherFlix. The show is edited by Alyssa with music by MojoFilter Media.

Breakfast in Beauclair is produced by Alyssa in New York City with Luis of Kovir, The Owner of The Churlish Porpoise, Katie (The Redhead of Toussaint), Jacob B., Ayvo of Gulet, Bee Haven of the Edge of the World, Charlotte from Vengerberg Glamarye, RedKite, The Original Roach, Codringher’s Cat, Libby, Wolf, John of Ryblia, Tom from Australia, Jill Cate, The Tabby Witch, Olle from Sweden, James Carson III, Psilocybe Sorcerer, A Toussaint Knight, Miriam of Temeria, Softie, and Mary the Moo.

Special thanks to Mitch and Rob for joining us for this episode and our international hanza for their support.

Transcriptionist: Kristianne Benganio, Krizia Marrie Casil

 

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