Ep. 39 — Chapter 4 from "Blood of Elves" (Part 3)

Lea from the US and Madi from the US join Alyssa for Part 3 of our discussion of Andrzej Sapkowski’s first Witcher novel Blood of Elves, Chapter 4. Very important bits include: Ciri’s struggles with her trauma from the Nilfgaardian war versus the expectation of her neutrality as a witcher-girl, the witcher’s’ neutrality—or neutral-ish neutrality, the balance of a thousand-year-view, the personal cost of war, your Child of Destiny’s first home school field trip, and the close of the most heart-wrenching chapter from Blood of Elves.

This episode is available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, and Stitcher.

Transcript

Cold Open

OPERATOR:  —the PIN followed by the # key.

LEA:  I'm just gonna interrupt to say I think we lost Madi.

ALYSSA:  Oh, shit.

OPERATOR:  Your call will be connected when you enter the PIN followed by the #—Thank you! You're joining a call! 

ALYSSA:  Yup. There she is. 

LEA:  Oh. 

ALYSSA:  Hi Madi!

MADI: Hi! That was really weird. Anyway.

[Breakfast in Beauclair theme music by MojoFilter Media]

Introduction

ALYSSA: Welcome to Breakfast in Beauclair, a global Witcher Podcast. My name is Alyssa from GoodMorhen, and I’ll be your host as you, I, and our international hanza accompany Geralt of Rivia and his destiny, Cirilla of Cintra, across the Continent.

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[Episode Details]

As for this episode, Lea from the US and Madi from the US join me to close Blood of Elves, Chapter 4. Join us as we discuss Ciri’s struggles with her trauma from the Nilfgaardian war versus the expectation of her neutrality as a witcher-girl, the witcher’s’ neutrality—or neutral-ish neutrality, the balance of a thousand-year-view, the personal cost of war, your Child of Destiny’s first home school field trip, and the close of the most heart-wrenching chapter from Blood of Elves.

In our mid-episode news segment, “Tidings from Toussaint,” Lars from Witcherflix recaps what we learned about The Witcher Season 2 and Nightmare of the Wolf at WitcherCon 2021.

Without further ado, let’s continue our discussion of Blood of Elves, Chapter 4.

Discussion

[Breakfast in Beauclair stinger by MojoFilter Media]

ALYSSA (VOICEOVER): When we left off, Geralt, Ciri, and Triss had joined a caravan of dwarves, led by Yarpen Zigrin, on their mission to carry secret cargo to Aedirn.

ALYSSA:  In the third section of the chapter, the convoy encounters light cavalry from Ban Gleán the Dun Banner. This is a very brief section that we get in which uh there's a slight hiccup when the convoy hits this collection of cavalry who claimed to be also there for the King. But Wenck is like, "But we're here for the King", and there's this very odd standoff. The other cavalry kind of comes around, checks the convoy and then warns them that there's Scoia'tael in the area.

LEA:  It definitely does reinforce because, you know, initially at the beginning, Geralt asks Yarpen what they're transporting, and Yarpen's like, "Oh, fish". And Geralt knows that's a lie, but he can't get anything more clear out of Yarpen. But like, it's just like, doubles down on the sense that he has whrer like he, when he first meets Wenck he's like, this guy's a hood. Like, this is like a trained soldier. This is not just like a random, like, what is this? You know, and Yarpen's, like "Just fish". And then this one, too, you know, they run into guys who say that they're also with King Henselt's army and Wenck is still very much on his guard. And initially, they're like, "Just let us check your wagons" and he's like, "Why? What are you looking for? What is this?", you know, he kind of like pulls rank in this like kind of intense way. There's like a very intense kind of standoff. Some of the dwarves pull weapons, you know. And he only backs down only when the soldiers from Ban Gleann say, you know. We're looking for like, human traffickers, right? Like people have been trafficking in slaves. This is another way in which Nilfgaard is kind of like this evil empire, right? Like is, Nilfgaard has slavery. And finally, Wenck is like, "Fine if you're looking for slaves. Go ahead, look away". But you know, clearly part of the issue is like, like whatever's in these barrels. The *cough* special fish that the army needs to win the battle, he just doesn't want anyone looking in those barrels. Like it's clearly, it's important enough that he would like, pick a fight with guys on his own side.

MADI:  And I am just dead at the little, they're like riding up and down the- the column of the caravan. The dwarves are saying different things, blah, blah, blah. And one of them like picks up the canvas around where Ciri is sitting, and Triss smiles weakly and says, You can't see me at all.” He's like, oh, salt fish. And what's this, child? And she says “dried mushrooms”. I guess I missed the first time of Triss casting that little like "These are not the drones you're looking for"- 

ALYSSA:  Yeah! 

MADI:  -type thing. Like I missed that. And I was just like, oh, Ciri. So funny. She's like, I'm just dried mushrooms. Like you don't see anything here.

LEA:  Like, and it's a little bit vague, right? Like, because like, it's possible that Triss is casting all of these spells. But this is also one of those weird moments where it's like, "Can Ciri do magic? Can she not?", because she's pretty convinced I think that she can’t. But like, after Triss casts the spell, he's like, "Who's this kid?". So clearly Ciri is still visible, and then Ciri is like, “I'm mushrooms”, and then the guy kind of like spaces out for a second. And he's like, Well, nothing to see here and wanders away. And so like, I don't know if Triss was like in the back, casting another spell, which is entirely plausible, or if this is one of Ciri's, like odd instances of competence in this field, that she tends to think she's bad at. 

MADI:  Yeah, I think it's more that. 

LEA:  But it is funny. And it's definitely one of those moments where again, Ciri is just looking to whoever is with her, to find out what to do, right? 

ALYSSA: Yeah.

LEA:  Triss is like “you can't see me” and Ciri is like “you can't see me either”.

ALYSSA:  Yeah. It reminds me of Doctor Who. The doctors have that blank card that doesn't have anything on it.

LEA:  Right! Right!

ALYSSA:  But whenever they hand it to somebody, it happens to say the exact thing that that person needs to see. And I feel like the doctors are always sometimes surprised about what that card def says, and it's definitely the same vibe.

LEA:  Oh, yeah, totally.

ALYSSA:  After they encounter the cavalry, with the warning that there's a Scoia'tael prowling the area. Geralt comes up with a plan. He decides for him and Ciri to kind of, go ahead and scout. So in the next section, Ciri rides ahead of the convoy spotting Scoia'tael in the woods. And in order to teach her about neutrality and empathy, Geralt takes Ciri to a nearby elven pilgrimage site, Shaerrawedd. Ciri rides ahead, and it, it’s this very freeing moment where she's on her horse. She's galloping at a speed that makes her feel very free after being stuck with this convoy and kind of stuck under the thumb of Geralt, and Yarpen, and Triss for so long and she's able to just let her horse gallop away. She's still mulling over her conversations earlier on the chapter with Geralt and Yarpen specifically. I think it starts out with her being like, "Ha, don't run away, mrmph, go slower. Bah!", but this is all in our head and then eventually she gets down to this whole passage, which I've actually highlighted on Good Morhen, I think, before, and it says "Neutrality in difference. She wanted to scream. A witcher looking on it differently, no a witcher has to defend people from the lushy, the vampire, the werewolf, and not only from them. He has to defend people from every evil. And in Transriver, I saw what evil is. A witcher has to defend and save. To defend men so they aren't hung on trees by their hands, aren't impaled, and left to die. To defend fair girls from being spread eagles between steaks rammed into the ground. Defend children so they aren't slaughtered and thrown into a well. Even a cat burnt alive in a torched barn deserves to be defended. That's why I'm going to become a witcher. That's why I've got a sword, to defend people like those in Sodden and Transriver. Because they don't have swords. They don't know the steps, half turns, dodges, and pirouettes. No one has taught them how to fight. They're defenseless and helpless in the face of the Werewolf and Nilfgaardian Marauder. They're teaching me to fight so that I can defend the helpless and that's what I'm going to do. Never will I be neutral! Never will I be indifferent! Never!” This is, as I said, the culmination of everything that she's already spoken about with Geralt and with Yarpen, and a follow-up to her outburst um at the end of Chapter Three as well. And she seems to have taken a side, you know? She is on the quote unquote side of good, she is against the Nilfgaardians, she is against the bully. So that's kind of where she is at the beginning of the section, which again, kind of opens room to change. But Lea, I think you had a note about this section as well.

LEA:  Yeah, I did. So, the work that I used to do was doing asylum immigration cases for children for, well, for people who entered the country when they were under 18. And so they ranged in age, but some of them were quite young. And an asylum case is one where you say that you want to stay, you ask for permission to stay, because you're afraid to go back, because of something specific that happened to you. So, I had a couple of years of basically talking to young people about like, terrible things that had happened to them. And so, this depiction of Ciri's memory is very interesting to me and it's- it comes a little bit before what you just read. Sp she’s riding through the forest. She's feeling really good. It's very cute because she's clearly still enough of a child that she's looking forward to doing a really good job scouting. And she's really excited to get praise from everyone, like, from Geralt especially, but like, she's like, yeah, Yarpen will say I did a good job and Wenck will say I did a good job, and everyone will be impressed. And then she remembers, that like, the reason she's being sent to scout is because of elves and she's like, I'm not afraid of elves. Why should I be afraid of elves? And then she's thinking about this conversation. And then it says this sentence I found very touching, she says, "Ciri had not forgotten. Although, she very much wanted to forget what had happened in Cintra. The wandering, the despair, the fear, the hunger, and the pain. The apathy and torpor, which came later, much later, when the druids from Transriver had found her and taken her in. She remembered it all, as through a mist, and she wanted to stop remembering it. But it came back." And that I think, is a depiction that is very true to what I saw in a lot of people. Who are young, who had gone through things like this, which is that like, this desire to forget about it, you know? And in these moments, like when she's riding, where something else is much more present in her mind, she's able to forget about it momentarily. But the combination of the way your brain works, and also the way that the world is, uh, her world, you know? She can't forget about it, and it keeps coming back. This story kind of lists the, the things that she's remembering, it comes back in her thoughts and in her dreams. And it talks about Cintra, and then later Transriver, “the flame blackened chimney among charred ruins next to it by an unscathed well, a black cat licking terrible burn on its side, a well, a sweep, a bucket, a bucket full of blood.” And then later in the part that you read where she says, you know, we need to defend people from being impaled, and burned in barns, and thrown in wells. It's like, I wonder why she's getting these very specific examples from — 

ALYSSA:  Hmm.

LEA:  —like, it's clear that like, this is a part of what happened in Transriver, which no one really likes to talk about. Even Geralt, I think before he's just like, "Yeah, they came after her." You know, looking for her, so someone did. I don't know if he's identified who yet when she was staying like in this like refugee camp in Transriver with the druids and killed the family she was staying with. Clearly, that was a very formative experience for her because they really tortured those people. And she, she saw it like, down to the cat, you know? She's- she's interested now in specifically defending people against that. That evil. And it's because it made such a traumatic impression on her.

ALYSSA:  Yeah. It's interesting that you know how specific that she is and she must have seen these acts of war firsthand for that to even come back up again. So the first Nilfgaardian war is super vague for us. You know, we hear about it anecdotally through Geralt. We hear about Sodden through Triss and through Yurga in Something More. But very few times, we actually get to hear firsthand accounts of what the landscape on the continent was actually like. Ciri's one of the few times that we actually see that and, as you said, it's, it's unusual how specific she is here.

LEA:  This is just like, in her child's view, right? That this horrible thing happened. Nilfgaard, The Helmet, The Black Helmet, The Feathers, The Fire. You know, and it's become this kind of just like nightmare monster in her head. And that's part of why, you know, she's like, well, if the elves are on the side of Nilfgaard, then I can't be on the side of the elves. And then immediately thereafter, she is forced to take a very different view of the elves. In this moment, she's having this kind of moment of realization that she's never going to be neutral and she's angry and she's crying. She says here, you know, she, she realizes that she's crying, and she's kind of surprised by it, which again, is something that happens sometimes with people who are, have a lot of trauma, like the memory just kind of comes back unexpectedly. And then she realizes that there's someone else there and it's, it's an elf. And then Geralt sneaks up behind her.

ALYSSA:  Yeah, Ciri runs off so far and she ends up in the woods. All of the sudden, she notices, like, the animals aren't doing anything. There's no woodland sounds. She hears something, and she reacts instinctually and she just dives beneath the shrubbery or the bushes that are there, and just prays that the horse doesn't make a sound. And then, she starts to see these elves coming single file through the woods. First a scout and then the rest of their party, and they're not making a single sound and they're moving through the woods silently and there's so many of them. She just watches this and sees them go by. She doesn't move until she finally hears all the woodland sounds returning again. And that's when Geralt clamps his hand over her mouth and she gets so frightened until she realizes who it is. Then Geralt tells her not to tell the convoy anything. Ciri doesn't understand why. She says you know "Why shouldn't I say anything? They have to be warned. Whose side are we on? Whose side are we against? Who's our friend and who's our enemy?" and Geralt responds again, with his neutral frame of mind. "I hope you'll finally stop dividing the inhabitants of the worlds into friends and enemies", which you know, doesn't answer her question. Not really, and not the immediacy of it like, oh shit, there are people here who will potentially kill the group that we're with. You know, that question kind of goes on further. Ciri asks, and what if they attack. And Geralt insists that they won't. He says, you know, why do you think that's such a vital load of gold and silver, King Henselt's secret aid for Aedirn is being escorted by dwarves and not humans. I saw an elf watching us from a tree yesterday. I heard them pass by our camp during the night. The Scoia'tael will not attack the dwarves, Ciri. But yeah. 

LEA:  Oh, Geralt.

ALYSSA:  He's like, I don't, I don't even know where to pin his mindset right now. Because like, on one hand, yes, he's neutral. On the other hand, is he mentally extending that neutrality to people who clearly aren't? Is he just like projecting to an extent? Does he have that much faith in the good of others despite everything that he tells us throughout the short stories, throughout the beginning of Blood of Elves where he's jaded as fuck. It's like, what, what is, what is your goal right now? And it seems like it's just to do the thing that he's here to do. He's here to get Ciri to school. 

LEA: Right.

ALYSSA:  That's all. 

MADI:  Yeah. 

ALYSSA:  He's just trying to get Ciri to school.

LEA:  He's walking his daughter to school. That's what this whole chapter is.

ALYSSA:  He's got like a super sick sorceress, and he happens to be stuck suddenly, with like, labor, on they way to taking his kid to school. He's just trying to stay out of everybody's way. And it's, aside from boiling it down like that, like, I just can't wrap my head around why he's doing things that he's doing.

LEA:  It definitely seems to me like he's been keeping up the sort of pretense that they’re transporting fish until this moment when they're alone in the woods. And he's like, it's obviously money, Ciri. Like, it's obviously gold and silver, and they put the dwarves on like, I think it's just like, I think he really thinks he's figured it out, right? Like he's figured out this odd convoy, which doesn't make sense initially. And he looks at it, and he looks at it, and he's like, "Ah, I figured it out". They put dwarves on it so the Scoia'tael won't attack. And they're saying it's fish, but it's actually money. That's not totally off base. But he's really failing to account for how cynical a lot of these other actors are, as we find out much later, actually, not that much later.

MADI:  Yeah, I think he's just going back to kind of, what we were discussing before. When you live such a long time, you probably are just like god like, I think he says later in this book at some point. I'm too old for this shit.

ALYSSA:  He says that I think at least once in every book.

MADI:  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We've discussed before that in A Shard of Ice, it's very obvious that like, he does have feelings, even though the world says he has no emotions. It's just a facade that he puts on himself to protect himself, I think. So I think his neutrality is just another coping mechanism for him to be like, "Oh, God, this is complicated. Like, I do have feelings, but I'm not supposed to. Ughhh okay, like, it's, it's gonna be fine". Like, I think when he, at least I read it this way. When I read that passage, where he says, listen to me, and then he talks about, you know, why it's dwarves and not humans or whatever. It sounds like he's being so strong in what he's saying that it's like, he's not only trying to calm down and reassure Ciri. It's that he's trying to convince himself, you know? Like, we're leaving the convoy soon, you know, they're not going to attack, it's gonna be fine. Like, we're all going to be good, da da da da da. You know, that's kind of the vibe that I was picking up.

LEA:  And I mean, part of it for sure, maybe is that he's kind of leaning more into this kind of parental role. But I, I definitely didn't question the first few times I read this that he believes this version of events right. Like, this is what he's pretty sure is happening. But he's also like, he's trying to reassure her because she's kind of freaked, right? Like, she was just thinking about this, and then, oh my God, there they are. Even though she notices even at the moment, when she sees them before Geralt interrupts. They're behaving in a kind of odd way; it doesn't look like a martial situation, right? They're like walking single file somewhere. It's just odd. Yeah. 

MADI:  They're reverent and quiet. 

LEA:  Yeah, they're super quiet. But it's also alarming, right? Like, they were hypothetical until a second ago. I made a note of this. It's not important, it's just one of my, like, weird-like questions that may just be a little hole on the plot. But like, did he know that this place, Shaerrawedd. Did he know that they were gonna pass by it? Like, does he already know where it is? Clearly, he does. Did he know that there were going to be elves there then? Because like, I don't know, I just, it's unclear to me like, how much he already was anticipating, of this inevitable interaction if they're going by someplace that he knows is like a prominent pilgrimage site.

MADI:  It might be that, because he is very worldly. He's been all over the place. But, part of me when I was reading this is just kind of like, they sent Ciri ahead kind of like what you would do, like, if you let your niece or nephew win the game that you're playing with them. They sent Ciri ahead to be a scout. One, because they know she's like, you know, smaller, quieter, faster, less noticeable or whatever. But also, like, Geralt can tell she's like, getting cabin fever from this caravan. But at the same time, he's not going to just send his child of destiny out into the world by herself. So, I presume he was probably going to follow along behind no matter what, whether he knew it was a pilgrimage site or not. I think it's more just kind of coincidence like, oh, they've passed through this woods before. Because he knew, you know, what direction the caravan was heading at the beginning, like, Oh, you know, I can, I can stop here after blah, blah, blah. Just 10 days in the carriage, please. I think it's a little of both protectiveness and also just, he's worldly, you know?

LEA:  Yeah, and I mean, it also occurs to me that he might have like, done a loop before. Before she got there. So maybe he didn't realize it was Shaerrawedd until a minute ago, and he was like, oh, that's where they're going. And then he just decides to take her on a field trip, because it's like a teachable moment.

ALYSSA:  Yeah. I also wonder if we already realized here that he's keeping secrets from the rest of the convoy, right? He's already seen Scoia'tael scouting them out. Um, but he hasn't told anybody. And he only told Ciri because she saw firsthand. So, I would wonder if he does know that this is there, and it is a pilgrimage site, that he would make the assumption that they would still be safe. Even though this is somewhere where elves are going to, are going to go. But I, I think it's more just like, ignorance is bliss? And like, he is heroically taking on the burden of knowledge that this, that or the other thing. And that's kind of what it seems like. In that, he's just burdening himself with that knowledge. In the hopes that everything will just kind of pass by and he won't need to actually act on any of it.

MADI:  He does that a lot. He does that a lot. Like we'll see it more later. But even in the video games, he's just kind of like, oh, fine, I'll do this really annoying or really difficult thing. Just let it all be okay. Like it-. Whatever, like, fuck it.

LEA:  Yeah. And it's already clear that, like, this is maybe his understanding of neutrality is, is a little bit, um, warped. I think maybe he would say that this is part of being neutral, is like he knows that there's some situations here, some circumstances surrounding that would increase the tension if they were known. 

MADI:  Right. 

LEA:  And so his choice is just to make sure that they don't get known. And then everything will be fine. Arguably, not a very neutral thing to do. Um, but uh, but his choice in I think a number of situations going forward as well. But in this one, especially.

ALYSSA:  Geralt makes the decision to take Ciri further into the woods to go visit this elven pilgrimage site. You know, at first it doesn't really look like much. It's an elven ruin. And Ciri doesn't understand why they're there. And Geralt is like, hold on a second. I'm gettin’ there. And they eventually make their way to the center of what used to be a castle or palace. Ciri asks like, "Whose is this? Why is it here? Why was it destroyed?". Geralt explains that it used to be an elven palace. She asks who destroyed it all. Humans? And Geralt says no, they did before they left. Geralt says they knew they wouldn't be coming back. It happened following their second clash with the humans more than 200 years ago. Before that, they used to leave towns untouched when they retreated. Humans used to build on the foundations left by the elves. That's how Novigrad, Oxenfurt, Vizima, Tretogor, Maribor and Cidaris were built and Cintra. Geralt leads her deeper into this palace and there's this beautiful rosebush that has white roses and a portrait of a face that, despite the destruction of everything else, the face is just as beautiful and the rosebush is very well kept. So it's very clear that like, people are still coming here and uh taking care of what's left despite the ruins. Geralt teaches Ciri about why this place is important and also about the elven side of this equation. We hear more about the story that Yarpen had briefly mentioned in the beginning. We hear more about Elirena as he had called her. Geralt says “Aelirenn, known as Elirena by dwarves and humans. She led them into battle 200 years ago. Elirena stirred up the young, they took up arms and followed her into their last desperate battle, and they were massacred. Mercilessly massacred. They died for the stone and marble and for Aelirenn. Just as she had promised them, they died with dignity, heroically, and honorably.” He closes his note to Ciri by saying, “Do you understand what this neutrality is which stirs you so? To be neutral does not mean to be indifferent or insensitive. You don't have to kill your feelings. It's enough to kill hatred within yourself. Do you understand?” There's a lot in this conversation between Geralt and Ciri and the lesson really is about what the meaning of his neutrality is. You know, devoid of what everyone else interprets it to be. And the thing that I noted here was that Geralt is described as being far away. And this isn't necessarily defined in the prose, but it could be, you know, he's just kind of recounting the stories that were told to him in his head, or the concepts here tied directly back to the short story,The Edge of the World from The Last Wish. In The Edge of the World, when Geralt and Filivandrel are speaking, Geralt says in the middle of the short story, “you know that desperate young men with the eyes of 100 year old men and withered, barren sick girls like to reveal will lead those who can still hold a sword and bow in their hands down into the valleys. You'll come down into the blossoming valleys to meet death, wanting to die honorably in battle and not in sick beds of misery where anemia, tuberculosis, and scurvy will send you. Then long living and che, you'll remember me, you'll remember that I pitied you. And you'll understand that I was right.” And at the very, very end, after Dana Meadbh comes in, Filivandrel says to Geralt, “After some consideration, I've come to the conclusion that you were right when you pitied us. So goodbye, goodbye until we meet again. On the day when we descend into the valleys to die honorably. We'll look out for you then, Toruviel and I. don't let us down.”

MADI:  I like that he defines what he thinks of as neutrality. Just because it kind of shows us that, like, he hasn't killed his feelings. You know, he's accused of this all the time. Well, he's an insensitive monster. But he's, he's still feeling it all underneath, which, you know, makes you feel a little bit more like, Oh, Geralt. It's okay. Like, you can talk to people. But on the other hand, it kind of clears some stuff up for the reader because Lea, you yourself were saying earlier, like, that's not neutrality, like leaving information out like. Hmm, is that neutral?

LEA:  Yeah. Trust the lawyer to be really literal. But it is, I mean again, he says, you know, like, it's enough to kill hatred within yourself. But also, I mean, part of the gist of this seems to be, like, when he says, you know, elves continue to come to Shaerrawedd, the impetuous and the foolish ones for whom the cracked stone is a symbol. As well as the sensible ones for whom these immortal forever reborn flowers are a symbol. And he tells her, the elven and dwarven young must not be allowed to be massacred once again. And it seems like that's very specific to this conflict. And like part of why he doesn't want to be on the side of the human king, even when the non-humans are the aggressors, is because he's taking this kind of like 1000-year view. You know, he talks about like, elven biology, right? Like, this is why there aren't a lot of elves. That's because all of the young elves were killed in this massacre. And the old elves can't reproduce. And so, he's just like, so, you know, this is the long game. And he doesn't say this, but I feel like kind of implied is like, we can spare some humans. Like, it's kind of like an endangered species thing.

MADI:  Yeah.

LEA:  He’s just like, look, you know, like, there's a lot of humans, there's not a lot of elves. I mean, he doesn't say this or acknowledge it. But again, it's one of these things where his message is clear that like, you know, no one side is, you know, unequivocally good or evil. But it's also not clear that he's neutral. In fact, it's pretty clear that he has a lot of like, you were saying Madi, he's got so many feelings for a guy who keeps protesting that he has none.

MADI:  Yeah, for real. Um, but also, sorry, I'm also a very literal person. 

LEA:  Awesome! 

MADI:  Sometimes. Ugh! But when you were saying, you know, neutrality, and whatever. This last section that you were describing about, I think that the word shouldn't be neutrality, but more like balance. He's on a side, he's on the side of balance, kind of how you were saying, oh, we can spare some humans. You know, the endangered species, like that kind of took me out of like the book for a second because I was like, oh, shit, my life's purpose. But like the thousand-year view, that's putting words exactly to this vague feeling that I've been having through this chapter is just balance, you know? Like, he understands the bigger picture. He understands that this specific instance, this specific conflict, too, will pass. But it's going to come back because that's how life works, you know? I think his code, he needs to rebrand his code as balance, not neutrality. That's more what he seems to be leaning towards.

ALYSSA:  I also wonder if it's almost a reluctance to play God, in a sense. Obviously, everyone has their sides in the conflict. Everyone has their skin in the game and a belief that they themselves are right. And I think like to his point, it's like, well, what right do these sides have to determine who lives and who dies to determine the shape of the world? And, I think that you know, for just Geralt, it is enough to not take a side and to say like, no, I don't have a stake in the coming conflict. Maybe it is for his longevity. Maybe it is just because of his morals, and his scruples and I think it comes down to his own internal dialogue, rather than what all the external noise is, just because as both of you said, it may pass.

LEA:  One thing that comes to mind when we're talking about this is something that comes up further on in the saga. But it's come up before too in some of the early short stories. That Geralt, maybe the other witchers too, but we don't get to meet them. Geralt kind of has forced to draw his own line when it comes to intelligent monsters. Like, Yarpen makes this remark or is like, you know, this is what how witches treat you know, conflict between intelligent races, right? Like, they're just like, uhhhhhhh, we don't have the expertise to deal with this. So we're just gonna step by, but you know, even when he meets and I can't remember his name, but the beast. 

MADI:  Nivellen.

LEA:  Yes! Nivellen. You know, he's kind of at a loss, initially. I mean and then, he realizes he's not a monster, and he's like, fine. Because that puts him comfortably, you know, back on solid ground again. But, you know, there are other instances, right? Where he meets monsters that are not human. That are intelligent and every time it throws him into just like a moral spiral. Where he's just like, I don't know where I'm drawing this line, right? You know, if it has like eight or more legs, he seems pretty comfortable with dispatching it. Which is kind of how I feel about a lot of animals. So I sympathize. 

MADI:  Oh, sad. 

LEA:  But you know, like, is that, is that good? I don't think it is good. But it's certainly true, right? Like, and so I think that's, yeah. He just lives in a constant state of discomfort about the fact that again, for someone who says he has no feelings, he's got a lot of feelings. For someone who's a professional killer, he really doesn't enjoy it. And like, clearly, like, killing almost anything can send him into this spiral. But especially, when it's something that's quote unquote intelligent. And we've seen in other situations where he like, has trouble drawing that line, you know? So that's partly why this is weighing on him so much. I think.

MADI:  Lea, you just described to me like my life morals of like, Oh, this is why I identify with Geralt so much, because he feels like, this is getting a little too personal. But sometimes I have like a hero complex and I’m like I need to save everyone! It's like Madi, you only have so much energy. Like, I know, you're sensitive, and you want to save everyone, but you can't and that knowledge of knowing, god, there's always going to be conflict, like which battle do I choose, you know? But not wanting to expose yourself to that hurt. Like, Geralt gets it. He feels it. He doesn't like it. So he's trying to kind of separate himself, and also the whole, like, killing things professionally, not enjoying it.

LEA:  I mean, it's what you said, that just made me think like a lot of this neutrality language is, is kind of his coping mechanism. Absolutely. You know?

MADI:  I know, this is fantasy, but Geralt's a superhero. He's got superhuman abilities. He's got this code. He's been trained to defend people, you know? His very first killing is that monster outside of Kaer Morhen. And that turns out to be a man trying to take advantage of a young woman. And, you know, he's just kind of thrust into this whole thing of like, I have so much power and responsibility. And it's like, oh, but I don't want to. I don't want to play God.

LEA:  He's such a superhero. And I think something that you just said-. Excuse me, I accidentally, you know, touched you more deeply than I meant to a minute ago. But what you just said about, like, people who are like, ugh witchers, until they need one. This is gonna sound a little self-serving, but people really treat lawyers that way too. Like, there's definitely this sense that like, no one wants to hire one. But when you need one, there's no other type of thing that will really do the trick. And, uh, and that can be really hard on that person. But that person is often kind of not seen, because those people are in such a difficult situation. And so it seems like something similar kind of happens with Geralt where people see him as very one-dimensional. It's because usually when they interact with him, something much more terrifying is happening. And they don't have a lot of leisure to be like, I wonder what his internal life is like.

ALYSSA:  At the end of this section, once Geralt finishes his educational spiel about Elirena and Shaerrawedd, Ciri pricks her finger on a rose that she had pulled down and asked to take with her. As she pricks herself, she kind of gets a little hazy and a little prophetic. Ciri pricks her hand, the blood runs down her lifeline. And she starts to kind of prophesize in the same way that she had done earlier in the book. She starts reciting the names of everyone who's there, and she tells Geralt. She's like they're dying, we have to go.

MADI:  I wish I knew more about, like, palm-reading and that kind of stuff. Because that kind of stuff really fascinates me. But I think it's obvious enough based on blood, lifeline, then she starts saying like they're dying. Like, I think that's all pretty obvious. But I just found that really interesting.

ALYSSA:  I forget exactly which one it is. But there's a line that runs from between your pointer and middle finger. And then two lines that run from between your pointer finger and thumb, one that runs to the opposite side, and one that runs down to the wrist and I don't remember which one it is.

MADI:  The lifeline is the one that curves with the muscle of your thumb. 

ALYSSA:  Gotcha. So that one runs from between the thumb and first finger down to the wrist?

MADI:  Yes. 

ALYSSA:  Okay. 

LEA: Yeah. And it's definitely the same prophetic thing, because it does mention that like when she shouts Triss' name, it's a voice which was not hers. And then she kind of comes to and she's like, we've got to go. And I think Geralt ends up behind her again. She's galloping so fast that he's like trying to keep up as they run back to the convoy.

ALYSSA (VOICEOVER): Before we learn just what Ciri has seen, we're gonna hand it over to Lars from WitcherFlix for recent news on the Netflix show. When we come back, Lea, Madi, and I will continue our discussion of Blood of Elves, Chapter 4.

“Tidings from Toussaint”

[“Tidings from Toussaint” theme music by MojoFilter Media]

LARS FROM WITCHERFLIX: Hey, it's Lars from WitcherFlix and this is "Tidings from Toussaint". Welcome back everybody! WitcherCon is over and it was a wild ride. We got trailers, teasers, episode titles, release dates, set photos and more! But let's start at the beginning.

WitcherCon took place on June 9th and 10th and had more than a handful of actors, actresses and producers for the Witcher main show and the anime spin-off movie Nightmare of The Wolf about a young Vesemir. Of course Henry Cavill was there in his own segment, we had Freya Allan, Anya Chalotra, Mimi Khayisa (who plays Fringilla Vigo) or Paul Bullion (the new actor for the Witcher Lambert), and of course the two showrunners Lauren S. Hissrich and Declan de Barra.

Arguably, the most exciting news to report is the first big teaser trailer for Season 2 of The Witcher main show and, of course, its release date. The new season will see its release on December 17, 2021—so there are five more months until we return to the Continent. The teaser itself is over 2 minutes long and full of treats. In the trailer, we travel to Kaer Morhen and meet new witchers. We got our first look at Lambert, Coën, Eskel, Vesemir and even more witchers whose names are mostly unknown. In other scenes, we see Geralt walk the courtyard of an ancient, run-down mansion and fight a flying bruxa. Moreover we got a first glimpse at Jaskier (wearing a very interesting hat), as well as Nivellen from the short story "A Grain of Truth", Nilfgaardian soldiers, a Tissaia de Vries desperately looking for Yennefer, and last but not least the famous "Much More" scene from the short story "Something More"—with a new spin—to include it in the plot of the first episode of Season 2. All in all, the teaser trailer is absolutely spectacular.

The second greatest treat, in my opinion, during WitcherCon were the episode titles for Season 2 of The Witcher. They definitely reveal a lot about the plot. So prepare for heavy spoilers:

Episode 1 is titled "A Grain of Truth" and will adapt the short story with the same name. Episode 2 is named "Kaer Morhen" and it will obviously see Geralt and Ciri tread the halls of the Witcher keep in Northern Kaedwen. The title of episode 3 is a little bit more ambiguous: It is called "What is lost" and could refer once again to the fall of Cintra and Ciri's past. Episode 4 is named "Redanian Intelligence" which is the Secret Service to the kingdom of Redania. Sigismund Dijkstra, its head, might play a very important role in this one. Episode 5 is titled "Turn Your Back" and is a very open title again. It could refer to Ciri's lineage and her Elder Blood and that she might be confronted with it. Episode 6 is called "Dear Friend" and refers to one of the fan favorite moments from the Witcher book "Blood of Elves". Without spoiling too much, these two words are the beginning of a very special letter Yennefer sends to a character that is very dear to hear. The penultimate episode 7 is named "Voleth Meir". This title is actually a character's name: The show-only character of Voleth Meir is described as a "very old white haired woman and a demon who roams the land." Sounds a little bit like the show-version of Gaunter O'Dimm. And last but not least, the final episode is named... well, we don't know! Netlfix keeps the last episode title a secret. Something very big must take place in this one.

Other important bits of WitcherCon regarding the main show include the final 11 seconds long teaser for Yennefer and of course several interviews. Yennefer's teaser sees her after Nilfgaard caught her after the big Battle of Sodden. The teaser also has a very mysterious hooded figure holding a baby and our first official look at the elven sorceress Francesca Findabair, played by Mecia Simson.

In the interviews, for example, Freya Allan talks about a funny scene with Paul Bullion from the Season 2 set: “We actually have a funny story, me and Paul. We do this one scene where Lambert comes in and he’s meant to slice this dummy and, each time, he was just missing. I tried to hold it together in the scene but I just couldn’t help but burst into laughter.”

In his lengthy interview, Henry Cavill talked a little bit about the Geralt he plays in Season 2: "For me, it was very important to bring Geralt as close to the books as the vision and plot would allow. And I wanted him to be more verbose and more intellectual and more representative of a man who has lived seventy years and has a philosophical lean. He can be mopey at times, but he is also wise. He has been around. He is a nice guy despite having moments of unpleasantness, and capable of extraordinary violence, but his intentions are pure. I wanted to reflect on that as much as possible. It is very easy to fall down the line of him being the grumpy snowman and there is a comedy aspect to that, and I wanted to lean away from it in Season 2."

Last but not least, there are also of course some things to report about the anime movie "Nightmare of the Wolf". We not only got a beautifully produced teaser, we also got a release date. The movie will be available on August 23. Moreover, Netflix confirmed that Theo James voices young Vesemir in the spin-off. He also got to voice Vesemir for a very brief moment in the final episode of The Witcher's first season during Geralt's fever dream. We also lerned the name and background of two other Witchers from "Nightmare of the Wolf". The first one is named Deglan who was raised on the Skellige Islands. The hardened and respected warrior later becomes Vesemir's mentor. A witcher named "Luka" has a big mouth and gets himself into trouble on more than one occassion, but he always has the back of his fellow witchers.

Anyway guys, that was a lot. I hope you all stay safe and well. We'll talk again in the next episode of Breakfast in Beauclair. Until then, thanks again for listening and good luck on the path!

[“Tidings from Toussaint” theme music by MojoFilter Media]

Discussion

ALYSSA (VOICEOVER): Hey, everyone! Welcome back from the break. When we left off, Ciri and Geralt had scouted ahead of the caravan, witnessing a Scoia’tael commando in the woods. They visit Shaerrawedd, an ancient elven palace and pilgrimage site. While there, Ciri cuts her hand and sees a vision of the convoy being attacked.

ALYSSA:  Ciri and Geralt head back to the convoy at breakneck speed, and they come across the convoy in flames. Despite Geralt’s reassurance to Ciri, the convoy is attacked by Scoia'tael leaving the group and their alliance fractured. The remainder of the chapter is devoted to this skirmish and the aftermath of it. It happens very quickly, there actually aren't very many pages devoted to this part of the chapter. But you know, when I first read it, it felt so much longer because I must have been holding my breath or something. The scene just happens so quickly, and it's so action-packed. I don't think we've gotten a scene quite like this. Maybe even since The Bounds of Reason where they were attacking Villentretenmerth. And even then it wasn't the same level of, yeah, of terror and of urgency. 

MADI:  Yeah, because these are people we care about, you know? It's not just some random knights. I remember the same thing like, oh, god, this part was where it all just came to a head and I was like, oh, shit!

LEA:  Yeah, it's a very stressful battle, for sure. And I feel like sometimes in action scenes and books, not just in these books, my eyes will kind of bounce around the page. But I know for sure when I went back and re-read at least this one, I was pretty much locked in. Like it's very tense, and suspenseful.

ALYSSA:  Mhmm. I mean, some of the main arcs of this, this is just off the top of my head, so this might not be in the correct order. But some of the main story beats within this battle are Ciri trying to save Triss. She's trying to drag her out from beneath a wagon and Triss is kind of holding her head and it's bleeding. At some point, there's a Scoia'tael trying to attack, I believe it's Yannick, but it could be one of the other dwarves on top of the box of one of the wagons. There was a dwarf or halfling or gnome trying to stab him. There's a few moments where Yarpen is fighting, like, two people at once. And he's just whirling and thrashing. Meanwhile, you know, Geralt is all of a sudden doing the same, he is not acting neutral. One of the Dahlberg brothers goes to defend Ciri and when he turns to attack his attacker, it's another dwarf and he hesitates. But the other dwarf doesn't. The other dwarf just rams straight into his collarbone, I believe. And there's a note in the prose that said, that the strike must have been hard enough to break both of his knees and Ciri screams. Ciri sees Wenck with arrows out of his side and he's still fighting. And then he gets another one through the back, I believe, and he slumps over but he's still in his horse. All of these things are happening. And it's so, so, so fast. And I think Sapkowski did a really wonderful job of keeping the attention very focused and keeping the perspective focused. Because we're seeing this from Ciri's perspective. So it made it pretty easy to follow, thankfully. Ciri has had all this training in Kaer Morhen. And, and when it gets to the end of the battle, she realizes kind of she's in danger, death is behind her as it's put. She goes to draw her small sword from the back, and it's noted that it feels so heavy, it feels so small. The sword which jumped out to her hand during training was just so slow. She defends herself, but is knocked off balance and falls. Standing over her is a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful elf that is prepared to kill her. And she sees not Ciri, but the white rose pin to Ciri’s jerkin. Again, this moment in the prose is beautiful and heart-wrenching. She sees the rose and it says that she shouts Aelirenn as a battle cry, but it's more for her conviction. It's more to convince her that she needs to kill this child. And while she's kind of debating that while she's gathering the courage to kill Ciri, Geralt steps between the two of them and kills the elf. And that's where- that's where the whole battle ends. Yeah. That was off the top of my head so I might have missed some things but I think those are the main story. 

MADI:  No. I was, I was reading along.

ALYSSA:  Oh, were you? 

MADI:  And you did perfectly. So, go you! 

ALYSSA:  I must have just like absorbed Peter Kenny's rendition through osmosis when I took my nap today.

MADI:  It's funny. I think it's, you know, all of that is just so, so heavy. So action-packed like were already said but as Geralt stands in between them, shoves Ciri away and cuts her, the blood spray goes to the rose. Like, and it spatters all over that beautiful white rose from Sharrawedd. And the last words that the elf is able to get out as she's dying is Aelirenn and then Shaerrawedd. And it's just like, ughhhh. Like, to me at this point in the story, obviously they're already symbols but even in my own mind now when I read those two words Aelirenn and Shaerrawedd, I just think of like, this symbol of like, fighting for freedom and fighting for justice. But perhaps it's become a little like contaminated and contorted through all of what we were talking about earlier with the Nilfgaardians and their slogans and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's just like, oof, on the rose? Come on, Sapkowski.

LEA:  We talked before about how like this chapter, you know, has some action but, but really, I think its bulk is just character development. And it's very touching to me that Ciri goes straight for Triss, who she’s really hasn't known that long but it's clear, kind of in the initial chapters that like, even though she wasn't quite aware of it, Ciri was really kind of desperate for female companionship. And Triss has become the sort of like, big sister figure. In this instant, like, she goes straight for her and especially because Triss is vulnerable, right? Like, you see her just kick into high gear, and she goes straight for Triss. And Triss is incapacitated even further, she's been hit in the head or something, you know? And she's like, I'm going to defend her, I'm going to protect her, you know? And that's clearly what, what she's motivated by initially. It's just to protect Triss, that's very touching. There's the fact that Yarpen is trying really hard to take up a defensive position. Like, a lot of this action is precipitated between the kind of Yarpen, and Yannick and the fight with the halfling is because Yarpen is trying to circle the wagons essentially, you know, to get into a better defensive position. And then yeah, the death of Paulie Dahlberg is really heartbreaking. Just that split second, right? That he hesitates. And I think earlier in the, in this, in the chapter, one of the crew talks about how you know, you know, he doesn't mind fighting, but like, he's never really had to be in a situation where he was fighting other dwarves, and he's not looking forward to it. So he would prefer, you know, if they didn't hang around and tempt fate in this way. And you know, like, clearly it just, it just takes him just a second. And then we see that same hesitation in the beautiful elf. Yeah, it's just also really touching how Ciri you know, after this impassioned, like, self-monologue in the woods, where like, she's never going to be indifferent, and she's always gonna fight. She just panics. 

ALYSSA:  Oh, understandably. Yeah. 

LEA:  And yeah. And she says, you know, it says the ground trembled and shook. Ciri suddenly realized that it was not the ground, it was her knees, you know? And like, all of her training is, it's there. But this is so much more intense and so much more real than anything she's had to deal with, you know? I'm sure all of that memory, that kind of wartime chaos, memory is, is, coming back. And she just, yeah, she freezes, she can't defend herself.

ALYSSA:  As I said, the skirmish happens very, very quickly. As intense as it is, Ciri, you know, faints or passes out. And she's woken up after the battle is over. She just sees the carnage that is left. One of the wagons, I believe, is still on fire. And they're starting to line up the bodies of the dead. And one of the moments that's here, Regan is sobbing over the body of his brother Paulie, and he's shouting like, "What am I going to tell our mother?" and nobody’s saying anything. There was a moment, you know, earlier when they were at the stream and with the fish, and it was silly, but I think the two brothers are arguing about like, why is it my pants and Regan says, Well, Mom told you to do anything that I say while we're out. They clearly have a bond. And then for that heartbreak to happen at the end. And as we find out, it happens for no real reason. Wenck is in a really dire state. Triss says that she's done as much as she can to heal him. But the Scoia'tael used these arrows that break apart within the body. You know, we discover that the entire convoy had been nothing but ordinary fieldstones. It wasn't, you know, the "salt fish”, it wasn't the gold and the financial aid that Geralt assumed it was. It was a test. It was a test to see if the dwarves and if Yarpen had been loyal to the crown. And we don't know the context of why this was determined to be a suitable solution. And we don't know, was there a betrayal beforehand? Is that why Yarpen was seen as suspicious? We don't really know as readers and honestly, we'll never find out. But we just see the aftermath here at the cost of Yannick and Paulie and Commissioner Wenck. The closing line here, Yarpen insists earlier in the section that, you know, you need to live a life without a need for forgiveness versus the ending that follows in the rest of the chapter. The Dun Banner helps them out which is why they were able to finish the battle quickly. But at the end, “Fredegard drew himself up, Yarpen Zigrin did not look at him. He was looking at the dead, at Regan Dahlberg still kneeling over his brother. ‘It was necessary Zigrin,’ said the knight. ‘This is war. There was an order, we had to be sure.’ Yarpen did not say anything. The knight lowered his eyes. ‘Forgive us’, he whispered. The dwarf slowly turned his head, looked at him. At Geralt, at Ciri, at them all, the humans. ‘What have you done to us?’ he asked bitterly. ‘What have you done to us? What have you made of us?’ No one answered him. The eyes of the long legged elf were glassy and dull. Her contorted lips were frozen in a soundless cry. Geralt puts his arms around Ciri. Slowly he unpinned the white rose splattered with dark stains from her jerkin and without a word threw it on the squirrel's body. ‘Farewell’, whispered Ciri. ‘Farewell,  Rose of Shaerrawedd.’ ‘Farewell and...and forgive us’, added the Witcher.”

MADI:  Oof. Everything came full circle with all of the mention of the word “forgive” there. The one thing that I just thought of is, okay, so logically, right? They’re in this caravan, they're traveling through the woods, whoever came up with this is like, oh, we'll use dwarves because then the elves will be like, fine to them. Geralt's like, I've seen them spying on us, they're leaving us alone. The second he and Ciri leave, this shit goes down. And it's like, Okay, did they attack because Geralt wasn't there? Did Wenck or somebody do something to provoke the Scoia'tael? How did the Ban Glean know to come and save them? Like, what mechanically happened behind the scenes to have this happen? Because, thus far they had been traveling through the woods just fine. And then, all of a sudden, this shit goes down. And it was planned. So like, how did the mastermind behind this know that this would be an effective test? That also makes it a little, or a lot more like, urgh, like a gross feeling. This plan of theirs.

LEA:  Yeah. In fact, the more I think about this plan, the less sense it makes. 

ALYSSA:  Oh, yeah!

MADI:  Mhmm.

LEA:  Because was the idea that like, if they got through the woods without being attacked, they would be like, Aha! That's proof that you are, you know, in league with the Scoia'tael because they wouldn't attack you. Or was the idea that if they got through the woods, and they were attacked that that would be like, it doesn't really make a lot of sense.

ALYSSA:  No. And it's, it doesn't seem to be worth the human cost at all. 

LEA:  The- yeah, the, the, non-human cost. The life cost.

ALYSSA:  The life cost. Yeah. 

LEA:  But that also, frankly, it rings true for me in terms of like the kinds of bureaucratic decisions that get made, especially when there's a lot of tension. It's just like, No! It makes no sense if you actually think about it. But you know, 50, people were thinking about it a little. And that's what ended up happening. And it was just a mess. Something that I had made a note of before is that it's interesting that even though he's like a very minor character, right? That this guy Wenck, he's definitely depicted as like, a decent dude, right? Like, Geralt kind of respects him after he agrees to let the sick Triss ride with them. He makes a definite effort, again, seeming to me at least very decent, to tell the Southern Knight who's ridden up to help, that they were wrong, right? Like, it that wasn't like Yarpen didn't do anything. We suspected him wrongly, I vouch for him. And it's interesting, because this also makes it clear that Wenck knew the whole time that this was a setup, that dynamic of like, he seemed like a decent dude. But also, like, he was crucially responsible for this. And I think that there's a couple characters like this too where like, you know, one-on-one, like, they seem like pretty decent people. They're just trying to get by, you know? But then when you pull back out, you know? To the sort of bigger picture, it's really very, very frightening. And that's kind of again, like, it's, it's just re-emphasizing that sort of grayness that I think Madi, you mentioned earlier about the world of The Witcher. Where there aren't a lot of clear cut bad guys.

MADI:  Yeah. It's gray in the way that the characters themselves think of things and also sometimes how we see it as readers. But I think here is one of those rare moments in the series where the characters themselves realize, you know, Oh, fuck. Like, maybe this isn't a shade of gray, maybe there actually was a right or a wrong, you know? I remember the first time I read this chapter. In college, I worked at the pets hotel, and you got like 30 minute lunches. And like, we took them in the break room, which was also the kitchen where we would make all the dog's food and medicine stuff up. So it's obviously very chaotic. And I remember, you know, I read this last section on break and like, the chaos around me and the chaos that's happening on the pages. And then, I just get to this page, and I'm just like, literally speechless. Kind of how I'm feeling right now and one of my co-workers comes in and she's like, hey uhh, it's time to switch or whatever, your break is over. And the whole rest of my shift I was with one of my friends like working with her. And she's like, Madi, what? Like, what? And then I just was like, "Kristen, you just- you have to read this. Like, I don't want to spoil it for you. But just like, Oh my god!” And I think that was 2018 and that was when another real life-like police brutality or some such thing had happened, and it was like, fuck, dude, like, what? Just that line. “What have you done to us? What have you made of us?” And then all of the political divisiveness we were mentioning earlier. It's just like, Oof! One of those things that, sadly, is very timeless, but still, still slaps super hard.

LEA:  Something that I think of when I read this that also echoes in like, real life, for me is like this tension between how to tread the line between realistically living in the world that is and optimistically working toward a world that could be.

MADI:  Yes. 

LEA: Because, you know, too much optimism can, you know, veer into foolishness. Too much realism can, can become cynicism. And it's just, it's an incredibly difficult line to walk in real life. And my takeaway from the end of this is really just the debacle, right? Like, I don't know that anyone, including the Scoia'tael, is really to blame. And that whole situation, like, I'm not particularly sympathetic to be like, whoever okayed this decoy plan. But like the, the guys who are immediately there are just sort of like, it wasn't necessarily their idea, either. Like, they're, they're there. But when he says, you're like, well, this is a war. It's war in the sense that like, it's not like somebody started it, but also at this point, like everyone involved is a victim, right? Like, Wenck is dead, and so is Regan, and so is the elf. And it's just awful like, it's just sad and awful and no one seems to have really gained anything.  

ALYSSA:  Exactly. I think when it comes down to it. On one hand, it's like, it wasn't any of their fault. As you said, they're all kind of victims to an extent in whatever this mess was. Freregard the Knight, he just says, you know, like, we had orders and so many things, so many cruel, cruel things in history have been done just because somebody had orders. Beyond that, the standing question at the end really just is like, was this worth it? There's obviously two different perspectives there. If you're a king, if you're somebody who's so far removed from the real personal loss that this little trap had, maybe it does, yeah, maybe, maybe it is worth it. But you know, having read through this content, as a reader through the eyes of a child that has met all these people, that has investment in this convoy doing well, in its safety, and in the people that are here, this does not feel worth it. This chapter overall, just like feels very unique in that it's one of the few chapters in the saga that really feels like a short story, like it could have come from The Last Wish or from Sword of Destiny. There's like a beginning, a purpose, they set out in the thing, something happens, and then it's the end. And it feels very self-contained, and it comes back to this examination of morality and the moral grays that we sit in. I really liked the point that you had brought up about that balance of living realistically versus living optimistically. And what that actually nets out in practice. 

MADI:  It's, it's tough.

LEA:  Like, a weird little like literary thing that I think is great is that detail that the elves were using this type of arrowhead, just the background of being like an international law person. It resembles certain types of bullets and weapons that are banned, that you're not supposed to use in armed conflict in our world. Like, exploding shell casings and things like that. They're considered to be a war crime, you're not supposed to use them. And it's just really interesting that he throws that in there, just so that it's clear that like, there's a way to take away from this that these guys are also bad. Because we've met Wenck, and we've come to think that he's like, you know, worthy of some of our respect, and he dies in a particularly horrible way because the Scoia'tael used these terrifying weapons that are intended not just to kill, but to like, make you suffer. It just adds another layer into the morass of like ethics that ends this chapter. Where, you know, in the beginning, it starts out with, you know, some fairly clear cut opinions. And by the end, it's just, it's just a mess.

ALYSSA:  And I think that's always the thing, right? Like, it's so obvious in theory, what you're going to do when something happens, and then you actually get put into the situation, and all of that theory is, is make or break really.

MADI:  It's all of the nuances and whatnot. Like you were saying, Lea, you don't really have sympathy for, you know, whoever put this in play or whatever, but when you step back from it, it's tough because it's like, everybody thought they were doing the right thing. But like, I hate that excuse, because it's like, really, guys? Really? Whoever made this decision, you really thought this was the plan? I'm gonna pull a little bit of a Geralt here and be like, uhh it's kind of fucking obvious when people are dying like, hello, people.

LEA:  No, definitely. And I think, I mean that this sort of we were just following orders excuse is not one that I'm particularly sympathetic to. Again —

MADI: Ugh. Yeah. 

LEA:  —for no other reason than my, my, my Jewish background. But, but it is also possible to say, you know, like, I don't know. And that's one of those things that being a lawyer kind of trains into you is that tendency to be like no, no! Step back. Debate it out in the debate stage in your head. And this is why some people find it very difficult to be like married to lawyers. Because it's a, you get trained to do that, and then there are instances where you do it where it's not like the most sensitive thing to do. But it's difficult to undo that, that training. And like, yeah, for sure. This is something that came up too when I was doing asylum work. I never had to do this, but there are arguments that can be made for people to seek asylum in the US who have done kind of terrible things, right? Like, not every asylee is sort of a perfect victim in the way that the children that I represented were, you know, they were mostly too young to have really had a hand in whatever conflict was going on in their home countries. But you can easily make an argument, you know, that you're being targeted by the government of your country. If for example, you used to be higher up in the former government, right? And so, you know, occasionally you do get people who have probably done some stuff. And they have a claim as well and so it's, it's hard. It's hard to know, you know, where to draw the line. But I think definitely, what Madi, what you're reacting to, is some of my just, like, kneejerk training coming through.

MADI:  Yeah, what you were saying about this chapter being like, its own thing. I just flipped forward to the next chapter.

ALYSSA:  There's no connection. There's no immediate connection. It's very jarring.

MADI:  There's none. Like, suddenly Geralt's just on a boat and you're like, what? You're gonna stab me in the heart and then we're like on a fishing trip? Like, what?

ALYSSA:  Yeah. We're just gonna completely forget that that happened.

MADI:  Argh!

LEA:  I'm a little bummed that we never got to see him drop Ciri off at school. 

ALYSSA:  Yeah.

LEA:  Come on. That would have been such a cute scene, you know, of him, like, you know, leaving her at her first day at elementary school. But we never get it. 

ALYSSA:  Unfortunately not. You know, I know that we covered a lot in presumably three episodes of Breakfast in Beauclair. But do you guys have any final thoughts before we wrap it up?

MADI:  I think my final thought is just this chapter, while it feels detached from the rest of this novel in particular, I think without spoiling anything, this chapter, in particular, is the perfect, like, if you wanted to get a feel for the Witcher, you would read this chapter. Because it's got the range of emotions from like, Geralt analyzing stuff, to the humor, to Ciri being you know, kind of a brat and silly and like the romance issues to this just very heavy feeling of what you might call moral ambiguity. I mean, this chapter will always have a special place in my heart. It's a deep one. It's kind of dark. But it's exactly why I love the Witcher because it is escapism, but it keeps you grounded in real life and it eloquently brings about those thoughts and feelings and you know, makes you reflect on your own life or your own experiences. So that's all I have to say about chapter four.

LEA:  I definitely second that. In fact, when I was, I guess, sort of assigned it. I was like, wait, is that the—? And it was that chapter, which just goes to show you that this chapter had made a particular impression. A chapter-y impression on me. I was like, ooh, I hope it's that one. 

MADI:  Yeah. 

LEA:  And it's very much a kind of like a bite-sized version of a lot of the things that a lot of us really like about the series in general. And it has all of, like you're saying, it has all of those notes of like the humor and the romance and it has, you know, what, what I noted here, like this classic Geralt move. He spends the whole chapter talking about how he neutrally is and then the minute Ciri is like they're in trouble. He just goes charging in. 

ALYSSA:  Yeah. 

LEA:  No second thoughts and is just like, well, so much for that.

ALYSSA:  Yeah. I mean, on that note, one of the things that I find really important about this chapter like aside, as you guys said, from the fact that it has everything that there is to love about the Witcher series in one chapter. You know, it really sets the foundation, like Blood of Elves is the foundation for the rest of the series. But this chapter specifically sets up the foundation for what is going to happen on the continent throughout the rest of the saga. The fact that we have a firsthand account of the conflict that's going to take us further into the series, I think is really important for readers just so that they have the understanding of where this is going to go. Where it could go in the future.

MADI:  The racial tension theme is probably one of the largest themes throughout the Witcher. And this chapter really lays the groundwork for that other than just hearsay. It's like, it's in your face. Welcome to The Witcher. Welcome to real life.

ALYSSA:  Yeah, it's such a fascinating chapter. And I feel like there's so much to unpack in it. And I feel like we could have gone on even longer for sure, digging into some of the themes that are here. 

MADI:  Oh, yeah. 

ALYSSA:  I'm interested to see and like what else people from the Hanza have to say about this chapter because there's so much to dig into here. 

MADI:  It's so dense. It's so- 

ALYSSA:  Yeah.

MADI:  -yeah.

LEA:  Yeah, no. I really like this chapter and I really had a good time talking to you guys about it.

ALYSSA: Yeah. Absolutely! 

MADI:  It's fun. 

ALYSSA:  Yeah, and thank you guys for taking up so much time to have a chat with me about this as well. So that is it for our show today. Madi, Lea, thank you so much for joining us for this episode. And thank you to our Hanza for listening. So where can people find you guys? And is there anything that our community can help you with or anything that you would like to share with them? 

MADI:  Lea, do you want to go first or me?

LEA:  Um, I guess I can. I hadn't really prepared any remarks but completely unrelated, but also kind of nerdy interests. So if people are into this, Tim, that's my partner and I, runs something called The Trade Journal Cooperative. Every quarter, so four times a year, we will send our subscribers a trade journal from a different business. So we've sent people Elevator World, Pasta Professional, American Funeral Home Director,—

MADI:  Amazing. 

LEA:  —Haunt World, which was my favorite. It's exactly what it sounds like. It's a magazine for people who run haunted houses. So we just, we try to track these and it turns out for almost every kind of business you can conceive of, there is a professional organization, and those organizations frequently publish. So basically, what we do is we just call those guys up and we're like, do you have any back issues sitting around, and we get those from them. And then we send a random one out every quarter with a little like introductory letter that has some fun facts about the industry.

ALYSSA:  Oh, that’s so fun!

LEA:  And we have like a small but like, you know, loyal subscriber base, so if anyone is interested, or if that sounds like fun to you, you know, you're welcome to, to subscribe. $15 a quarter, which averages out to less than the cost of a sandwich a month. That was my calculus, I don't know if anyone else finds that helpful, but I guess I did because I tend to think of money in terms of sandwiches. But yeah, if you want to receive, you know, something like Pest Control Professional, or you know—

MADI:  You'll be great at trivia afterwards. 

LEA:  You definitely will know some stuff you didn't know before. And you'll have seen ads for things that you didn't realize there were ads for. But I mean, it's one of those things where like you, you look at it and you're like, oh, of course. Like, like, of course, you know, like funeral homes have to buy those big steel tables somewhere. 

ALYSSA:  Oh, God! 

LEA:  But like, you know, you won't have seen those ads, unless you're reading American Funeral Home Director, in which case, it's like, yeah, we have the best tables. Or those are really gross example. But or like, or like fog, fog juice, right? For fog machines? 

ALYSSA:  Yeah? 

LEA:  You would never know what people think of as like the best fog juice brand. Unless you're reading Haunt World and then you'll know. Like, if you want the premier fog juice, you know who to go to. Or, or did you know there are, there are insurance companies that advertise in Haunt World.

ALYSSA:  Huh.

LEA:   Did you ever think about getting liability insurance for a haunted house?

MADI:  Oh my God. 

LEA:  I bet you never did! But once you've started thinking about it, it's fascinating. So if that's the sort of thing that appeals to anyone else in the Hanza, feel free to check out tradejournalcooperative.com

ALYSSA:  Yeah. I don't discount our bunch of international nerdy weirdos. Do you ship internationally or just to the US?

LEA:  This is actually something that we're talking about right now.

ALYSSA: Okay.

LEA: Because Tim was on some kind of radio show that broadcast in the UK and suddenly we got like a bunch of people from the UK asking if we would ship there. So we're actually looking into it. So if there is anyone who's interested, the more interest we have, the more likely we are to do it. We have been U.S. only but you know, we're, we're looking at it because we've gotten an uptake in interest. And so the more interest the better, the more likely it is that we’ll, uh, we’ll ship internationally.

ALYSSA:  Oh, awesome. Okay, well, if any of you nerds are interested in that, go check that out. And hopefully, we can get international shipping for you guys. And Madi, where can people find you? Other than the usual haunts or including the usual haunts?

MADI:  Oh, yeah. My Instagram if you want to follow is @madigabrielle. I don't have time to post and even when I do, it's usually just dog pictures or the latest green eco-friendly product I've started using.

ALYSSA:  And you could also see Madi in the Americas D&D games playing as Seran the half-elf druid as well. And yeah, so I think that's it for this episode. And next episode, join us as we discuss chapter five of Andrzej Sapkowski's Blood of Elves. 

LEA: Yay. we did it!

Outro & Credits

[Breakfast in Beauclair theme music by MojoFilter Media]

ALYSSA: Thanks for joining us at the breakfast table! For show notes, transcripts of each episode, and a complete list of our social platforms and listening services, head over to breakfastinbeauclair.com.

Breakfast in Beauclair is created by Alyssa from GoodMorhen. It’s hosted by Alyssa with the “Tidings from Toussaint” News Segment by Lars from WitcherFlix. The show is edited by Alyssa with music by MojoFilter Media.

Breakfast in Beauclair is produced by Alyssa in New York City with Luis of Kovir, The Owner of The Churlish Porpoise, Arix the Godling, Katie (The Redhead of Toussaint), Jacob B., Ayvo of Gulet, Bee Haven of the Edge of the World, Charlotte from Vengerberg Glamarye, RedKite, The Original Roach, Codringher’s Cat, Dustin, Libby, Clare Odell, Jennidy Mundilovitch, Brett from California, Wolf, Corey from the US, John of Ryblia, Sebastian von Novigrad, and Tom from Australia.

Special thanks to Lea and Madi for joining us for this episode and our international hanza for their support.

Transcriptionist: John Matthew Sarong
Editor: KM Casil

 

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