Ep. 38 — Chapter 4 from "Blood of Elves" (Part 2)
Lea from the US and Madi from the US join Alyssa for Part 2 of our discussion of Andrzej Sapkowski’s first Witcher novel Blood of Elves, Chapter 4. Very important bits include: a dissection of the complex conflict between races on the Continent; plot poisoning; “avuncular”; and Ciri as a Pokémon, a baby, and Brad Pitt. And if you can’t actually be soulmates with the object of your infatuation, maybe consider ‘kindred spirits of misreading the room.’
This episode is available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, and Stitcher.
Episode Announcement
Join the hanza this Friday, July 9th for WitcherCon! Kick off the day with me at 11AM EST / 5PM CET on the @breakfastinbeauclair Instagram as we go Live with members of our international community. Then, join me and Brett from Whispers of Oxenfurt as we co-stream the event on Twitch throughout the day and pop into our Discord and chat about all the reveals, new content, and trivia with the hanza.
WitcherCon streams tomorrow, Friday, July 9th at 1PM EST / 7PM CET and 9PM EST / 3AM CET+1 across Netflix and CD Projekt Red’s YouTube and Twitch channels. Learn more at witchercon.com.
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In this Episode
[00:00] Cold Open
[00:51] Introduction
[03:12] Discussion
[21:37] “Tidings from Toussaint”
[25:17] Discussion
[56:50] Outro & Credits
Relevant Links
Transcript
Cold Open
ALYSSA: Gross
MADI: Yeah, yeah but you know, fantasy times, they eat out of their pockets or whatever. I don't know.
ALYSSA: Pocket snacks.
MADI: Pocket snacks.
[Breakfast in Beauclair theme music by MojoFilter Media]
Introduction
ALYSSA: Welcome to Breakfast in Beauclair, a global Witcher Podcast. My name is Alyssa from GoodMorhen, and I’ll be your host as you, I, and our international hanza accompany Geralt of Rivia and his destiny, Cirilla of Cintra, across the Continent.
[WitcherCon with The Hanza]
Join the hanza tomorrow, Friday, July 9th for WitcherCon! Kick off the day with me at 11AM EST / 5PM CET on the @breakfastinbeauclair Instagram as we go Live with members of our international community. Then, join me and Brett from Whispers of Oxenfurt as we co-stream the event on Twitch throughout the day and pop into our Discord and chat about all the reveals, new content, and trivia with the hanza.
WitcherCon streams tomorrow, Friday, July 9th first at 1PM EST / 7PM CET, with a second showing at 9PM EST / 3AM CET+1 across Netflix and CD Projekt Red’s YouTube and Twitch channels. Learn more at witchercon.com.
[Patron Announcements]
This episode, we welcome Sierra to our hanza on Patreon! And name changes for our producer-level patrons, AerialKitty and Libby, the Castel Ravello Sommelier, who shall henceforth be known as Codringher’s Cat and Libby. Thanks to our producer-level patrons: Luis of Kovir, The Owner of The Churlish Porpoise, Arix the Godling, Katie (The Redhead of Toussaint), Jacob B., Ayvo of Gulet, Bee Haven of the Edge of the World, Charlotte from Vengerberg Glamarye, RedKite, The Original Roach, Codringher’s Cat, Dustin, Libby, Clare Odell, Jennidy Mundilovitch, Brett from California, Wolf, Corey from the US, John of Ryblia, and Sebastian von Novigrad.
If you’d like to explore becoming a patron of the show, head over to patreon.com/breakfastinbeauclair.
[Episode Details]
As for this episode, Lea from the US and Madi from the US continue our discussion of Blood of Elves, Chapter 4. Join us as we dissect the complex conflict between races on the Continent; plot poisoning; “avuncular”; and Ciri as a Pokémon, a baby, and Brad Pitt. And if you can’t actually be soulmates with the object of your infatuation, maybe consider ‘kindred spirits of misreading the room.’
In our mid-episode news segment, “Tidings from Toussaint,” Lars from Witcherflix shares a behind-the-scenes look from one of Season 2’s directors and recaps what we can expect from tomorrow’s WitcherCon.
Without further ado, let’s continue our discussion of Blood of Elves, Chapter 4.
Discussion
[Breakfast in Beauclair stinger by MojoFilter Media]
ALYSSA (VOICEOVER): When we left off, Triss had come down with a mysterious illness as she and Geralt accompanied Ciri to the Temple of Melitele in Ellander. They had been denied help at a recently attacked fort and continued on searching for help on the Path.
ALYSSA: In Part 2, Geralt finds the caravan led by Yarpen Zigrin, under the command of Commissioner Vilfrid Wenck, in the service of King Henselt of Kaedwen. This is such a lovely section just because we're reintroduced to people that we met first in the short stories. Geralt, at the advice of the knight in the fort, goes out to find this caravan that had left previously. And it turns out that, you know, at the head of this caravan is Yarpen Zigrin, who he met in The Bounds of Reason in Sword of Destiny chasing the Golden Dragon Villentretenmerth. Geralt kind of like goes toward the voices, and there's this whole like, standoff, uhm and then they realize they know each other and then suddenly, the scene is very warm, you know, at nighttime lit by a campfire, and it's all these old friends meeting again. So we hear that, uh, Yarpen’s there as well as some of his crew, Yannick Brass, Xavier Moran, Paulie Dahlberg, and Regan Dahlberg.
LEA: I’m, I'm a big fan of these dwarf names. Like, I just love that there's like the Dahlbergs —
ALYSSA: Yeah.
LEA: — Like, I don't know. I like how he, how he will mix in sort of more names that sound more Game of Thrones-y, and then like other games that don't just to kind of reinforce the, I mean, this is how I feel about it. I feel like it kind of just reinforces the names are kind of arbitrary —
ALYSSA: Yeah.
LEA: — like so occasionally there will be just like a wild name that feels out of left field and sometimes some guy will just be called, you know, like John Goldberg —
ALYSSA: Yeah.
LEA: —John Goldberg the Dwarf, what do you want? Like this is just like a thing that I, that I like about the story series in general, is that we see a lot of Geralt kind of like, what's the word I want? He's seldom actually on very stable footing. Like he's like, things are almost always being pulled out from under him. Like —
ALYSSA: Yes.
LEA: —in this case, I think he's genuinely shocked. Like he had no idea he was going to run into someone that he knew. And you know, like this happens all the time. And, and he's just constantly stumbling into things and being like, “Oh? What? huh?” Which I just like as the sort of, you know, like very macho. He's been depicted in a lot of media as like a very macho character and he kind of is but like, he's also just kind of a doofus. And I like that.
ALYSSA: Yeah, this poor boy like the whole plot just like happens to him? He does take initiative, I think throughout the series, but it's more reactionary than just of his own accord, which makes it a lot of fun. And uh yeah, he's, he's a, is a very silly boy. I think when he does try to do something, it usually almost always backfires on him which again, like, I think adds to, adds to the plot humor, even if the situation is never actually funny, but it kind of adds this irony to the plot almost every time.
LEA: Yeah. And there's definitely that, that layer of irony, where when people see him coming, they tend to people, like other than his very close friends tend to assume that he's like, got a plan or that he's there for a reason. Cause he has this reputation. You know, he's famous, and you know, he'll just roll up, but it's never like he's almost never like, he just shows up places kind of on accident. Mostly.—
ALYSSA: Yeah.
LEA: —Like here, they're just like, oh, wow, shit, like the famous witches here. What's with something going down, is something's gonna happen? And he's like, oh, no, I was just looking for help.
ALYSSA: Yes.
LEA: —I have like a sick lady —
ALYSSA: Yes.
LEA: —like, do you have a doctor? Please?
ALYSSA: Yeah.
LEA: You know like , and immediately, they're like, that can't be why they can't be why, but it's yeah, it's that's that's it. There's no mystery, no mystery to Geralt. He's just trying to get by.
ALYSSA: And I think now that we've a shat on him for a little bit —
MADI: Awwwww.
ALYSSA: —That is a nice segway to uh why he's there and like the help that he's able to receive with Yarpen. So, um, you know, Geralt explains, hey, we have a sick sorceress and a young child, is it possible for us to join your caravan for a bit. Wenck is a little concerned about the situation because he doesn't really want more hands on this convoy as needed whereas Yarpen says like, we're on the trail and you don't refuse help on the trail. And he insists that the witcher, sorceress, and Ciri come along with them. There's a brief little passage where Ciri and Yarpen first meet. I think Geralt is off helping Triss in the woods. And meanwhile, Yarpen and Ciri are making medicine for her out of uh moldy bread and oil.
MADI: Mm-hmm. So I actually have notes about, you know me, all the like nerdy nature things. I'm like, oh, what's the —
ALYSSA: A True Druid.
MADI: — as we've discussed, I feel like Druid was already me before the day.
ALYSSA: Yeah!
MADI: I like to have my notes right next to the actual prose, like the book. Found it by the long, ewwww, like all across the page. Okay, so he says we'll make a little medicine for her. And it’s moldy oil meal bread, which I was like, okay, I know what bread is, but oil meal? Is that important? And I just kind of briefly looked into it. And usually, it's made with linseed, cottonseed, or soybean, so an oilier grain. And then they mix it with this, I imagine those jars of minced garlic that you get at the store, but something that's been like fermented and left out on the counter for a long time? Anyway, so they mix it, they roll it in this garlic and salt, and garlic has sulfur compounds in it. And that's what can help boost the immune system. Uhm it's also been used to like lower blood pressure, and it was given to athletes in ancient Greece, um because it reduces their heart rate. Kind of how like Ciri and Geralt learn to control their breathing, I think it was along those same lines for like performance, and then the moldy bread I just thought of penicillin-like there are medicines and vaccines and stuff that are derived from bacteria or the compounds they make. So it makes sense, aside from just like we're gonna feed her these gross little balls of things.
LEA: And I definitely appreciate that like, it doesn't sound any nicer than what the guy at the, at the fort did. But it does sound more reasonable. Like that guy, just kind of gave her some kind of purgative right? Whereas this is like no, this should help she's good, because they tell if I recall, they tell Yarpen that she has food poisoning, again, in this like ethically dubious attempt to fend off any doubt that she might have cholera or dysentery, you know, and so and so that's what he thinks is wrong is that she has food poisoning. So he's giving her stuff that he knows will help with that.
MADI: Yeah, and he specifically notes like nothing that sits in the guts will survive this and so it's like, okay, he's kind of like more targeted than just vodka and salt and pepper but still is a general medicine that's just kind of like, meh, my grandma gave me this. Maybe it'll work.
LEA: Yeah, absolutely. We see more of I think Yarpen, and I really like the just sort of the initial interaction that he has with Ciri. Like initially, she's like very kind of snippy with him? And he kind of like, gives her the business about it and he's just like, “Oh, I'm sooo sorry. I brought medicine for your sick friend. Do you want me to go away because I'm sooo rude?” And she actually does apologize. She’s just like, “No, I'm actually sorry, that was out of line. She really does need help. She's super sick.” Which I feel like gets them off on like a good foot, you know. And then he also mentions, which I'm sure endears him to Ciri, that he knows about food poisoning because he used to eat everything.
MADI: Oh, my God. Yes! Everything that he could hunt, or catch, or find is like, ewww...
LEA: Yeah, so he was just like, “Oh, I know, food poisoning. I used to eat anything I could catch.” And she's like, “Oh, cool.” She seems, she seems to really like the, the dwarves and particularly their, like their table manners or their lack thereof. All throughout this chapter. She's just very happy to hang out with them and like belch and fart.
ALYSSA: Yeah, which shows a lot of her uh character development since she's been in Kaer Morhen. It's already been like two-plus years since she left Cintra, given the amount of time that she was with the witchers. Yarpen is really one of the first people that she's actually meeting since leaving Kaer Morhen. So it's fun to see how much she's changed. Um, or, you know, what has happened now that those royal heirs have kind of disappeared.
LEA: Yeah, for sure.
MADI: Yeah. And it's, at first, I think that reaction is kind of like mini Calanthe, the whole like, kind of sneering like, I'm not a little goose. And then she's like, the more humility or humble personality of the witchers is more like okay, this, this guy's on our same level. Let me just talk to him like a friend.
LEA: Yeah, there's also I don't know if you guys are familiar with the meme of how, um, of how Brad Pitt always looks like the women he’s dating. It's like a meme that's going around where it's like a picture of him next to Gwyneth Paltrow and a picture of him next to Jennifer Aniston. Especially because Ciri’s so young, right, like she does kind of have this chameleon quality you know —
MADI: Mhmm.
LEA: —like as soon as she goes to Kaer Morhen and, and I'll talk about this later, because I think it also has something to do with, with the, the trauma that she suffered in the war, but she tends to kind of just like, be very present in whatever company she's in —
MADI: Mhmm.
LEA: — rather than, like, hang on to things. Uhm and so that kind of lends itself to her being this kind of chameleon where like when she was around the dwarves, she like kind of picks up dwarf manners. And when she's around the witchers, she's a, she's a witcher girl, and you know, and she just kind of is adaptive in that way because she's had to be.
ALYSSA: It's hard for me to say more without spoiling things —
MADI: Yeah. Yeah.
ALYSSA: —And I, I want to so bad, but I can't. I like that part of her. And I do think as you said that that's pretty much part, it's part of being a child —
MADI: Mhmm.
ALYSSA: — like is being able to try on all of these different things, and figuring out how that personality should grow and evolve like a Pokemon, like an Eevee —
LEA: Exactly.
ALYSSA: —Like an Eevee.
MADI: Oh, my gosh. And now that I'm thinking about it, she was kind of that way back before any of this super traumatic stuff. I mean, her parents had died at a young age, but before the uh…murder of Cintra, what is it that you're supposed to say if you're not Nilfgaardian?
ALYSSA: The slaughter, the slaughter, the massacre —
MADI: — before the slaughter of Cintra. Yeah, before all that, like, that's really the only trauma she had experienced is that her parents disappeared, which I'm not saying that's not a big deal. But she was a chameleon back then, so I think it's kind of like cool, how whatever much like, Geralt, whatever situation she's thrown into she's just like, oh, okay, I guess this is what we're doing now.
LEA: For sure.
ALYSSA: We'll also see this come about in future conversations between Geralt and Yarpen, as well as Ciri and Yarpen.
LEA: This is I think, maybe the first time that he identifies her as like his, his child in any way. Uh because you know Yarpen is like, “Who is this? Who is this lady who's sick? Why are we taking care of her?” And like, what, and then he asks, you know, like, “What about the kid? Is she yours?” And he's like, “Yeah. Yeah. Obviously like, and he says, you know, he doesn't even think about it. He's just telling him like, “Yeah, she's mine.”
ALYSSA: Yeah. Which is super, super sweet.
LEA: Yeah, this is a nice moment. And it's cool that I mean, you know, I'm not sure how much backstory Yarpen has or wants, but his immediate instinct is not like that she's Triss’ daughter, right? Like, his immediate instinct is like, she's yours, right? Like, obviously —
ALYSSA: Mhmm.
LEA: — like, look at her, like, um, which is, which is just really funny to me, because she's already copped a bunch of attitude with him. So his knee-jerk response is like this is, uh, this is your kid, isn’t it?
ALYSSA: She's a right brat. She must be yours.
MADI: Oh, my goodness.
LEA: Yep! Pretty much. Like that's, that's yours, huh? He's like, oh, yeah,
ALYSSA: Yeah, I feel like a lot of their partnership, as you know, father and daughter um or this kind of paternal relationship for them, it happens so quickly. I think between the last short story um when they're, you know, officially stuck together, and then we just had like, really like only two chapters with them. Chapter 2 and Chapter 3, where we actually got to see what their day-to-day was like together, but it's still very nice to see that there's no hesitation on Geralt’s part uh, she is his daughter.
MADI: Definitely very adorable. Lots of warm fuzzies.
ALYSSA: As the party keeps going, there's a couple of opportunities in which Yarpen is able to have conversations with both Geralt and Ciri independently. And as they're traveling on the road, uh Ciri is kind of in the back and she hears Geralt and Yarpen talking, um, outside. She's in the back of a wagon I believe. You know, it's cute. Because as they're talking, Ciri doesn't know what they're talking about. And we get this section of the chapter from her perspective. She's like, yeah, they were recounting some story about like a goat snacker or something, referring to The Bounds of Reason, when there was a man named Sheepbagger. —
MADI: Mhmm.
ALYSSA: — So it's, it’s very cute, that we're kind of like reminded of these short stories, but from Ciri’s perspective. It allows us to have like some removal from them, or rather than like, Geralt and Yarpen hashing it out and us having to hear all that dialogue again, I like that we get the perspective of a character to whom it's new for, which makes it really fun.
LEA: For sure. And I think this is the, I think this is the first time she hears Yennefer’s name.
ALYSSA: Yes, it's one of the first times, yeah.
LEA: Oh yeah. ‘Cause she's, she has no idea who they're talking about. And so her first introduction to Yennefer is the, Yarpen saying that he ran into her one time in a market and she told him she would catch him and make grass grow out of his ass. —
ALYSSA: Yeah.
LEA: —And Ciri’s like, ha ha ha grass.
ALYSSA: Which is par for the course —
MADI: Yeah.
ALYSSA: — For sure.
LEA: Yeah, exactly and it's foreshadowing how ultimately she and Yennefer will have some sentiments in common. Because uh she's like, "Hehe. Funny."
MADI: Yeah, and uh it's, it's funny, ‘cause it's also the first time that Ciri sees, not only does she hear Yennefer’s name, but she picks up that Geralt’s like oddly quiet about it. Like he's not denying it, but he just doesn't want to talk about it. So Ciri gets some like, "Hmmm... who is this?” It's, it’s just interesting.
ALYSSA: And the crux of Geralt and Yarpen’s conversation comes down to a warning. Given the fact that we were introduced to the Scoia’tael in that fort, and we hear that the Scoia’tael is comprised of, uh, nonhumans. Geralt now knows this and then he talks to Yarpen about, you just can't be in the middle of this. And the exact quote is, "Both sides despise those who sit on the fence or at best, they treat them with suspicion." Yarpen says, "I'm not sitting. I’m unambiguously declaring myself to be on one side." Geralt says, "But you'll always remain a dwarf for that side, someone who's different, an outsider while for the other side..." And then um Yarpen cuts him off saying, "Well go on. What are you waiting for? Call me a traitor and a dog on a human leash who for a handful of silver and a bowl of lousy food is prepared to be set against his rebelling kinsmen who are fighting for freedom. Go on, spit it out. I don't like insinuations." And uh Geralt says, "No."
LEA: Yeah, and I think we did kind of elide past this initially, like when they actually formally kind of joined the caravan. But there is this moment where Wenck who is in charge, even though Yarpen kind of is like practically calling a lot of the shots is like, "Well, you know, this would be a no brainer, if you, famous witcher Geralt, agreed to just like enlist for the amount of time that you're with the convoy, you know, because this is a military convoy." But Geralt knows that he's talking about the Scoia’tael because he's like, you know, there's stuff in the forest that we might be worried about. Uh monsters of a sort. And Geralt is finally, just like no. And he goes as far as to say, like, I have no intention of killing those, as you call them, evil creatures on the order of other creatures whom I do not consider to be any better. And this causes Yarpen to go like, "Oh, shit." like, but ultimately, you know, Wenck is like, yeah, all right, you know, that's fair. And I think that's really what triggers this argument, right? Is that like this, this kind of offended Yarpen. Uh, because I think he definitely thinks one side is more right, or at least more defensible than the other. And Geralt just came out and like just bald-facedly was like, no, I'm just gonna hang back. You know, I don't really have a dog in this race. And so that's, that's I think a lot of what precipitates this kind of roiling disagreement that finally explodes.
ALYSSA: And we've heard about Geralt's neutrality before. This is something that has been brought up, uh specifically in The Lesser Evil, the story with Renfri and Stregobor, he's like, I need to remain neutral. I can't take a side and it ultimately caused Renfri’s death. That's still consistent here. We didn't really dig into the nuances of why he believes that other than like, it's his code. But that is something that we're going to be able to see in depth throughout this chapter specifically, because Ciri is here. Ciri is kind of the linchpin for um the readers all throughout this chapter. She's the one who just kind of gets all this exposition hurdling at her for our benefit.
MADI: But she picks up on it really quickly. Like we know that she's clever, because we've seen it in countless other ways already. But again, I love that that speaks to her character. She's adaptable. She's like picking things up quickly. She's perceptive, like you said, Lea, she's actively present and every moment that she's part of and I think that's a really admirable trait of hers. And it's cool to see that it's there even as a child.
LEA: We also get a sense, more of a sense of Yarpen, and even though he's a secondary character, he's one that I really like. There's just something very paternal isn't the right word. Sorry, I'm, I'm going to be on the other side of the fence where I know a lot of words and I probably use too many of them. Um but I was gonna say he's not so much paternal as he is avuncular, which means he’s, he’s, he’s uncle-ly. —
ALYSSA: Yeah.
LEA: —Right? Like he's more uncle-ly, but like, even in this situation, like even when he's like, clearly disagreeing with Geralt about something that he clearly cares about a lot. They're fighting, but it almost feels like family fighting, not like the enemy. He just like, “Ugh, you know what, like, get up? No, get out, get out of my carriage getting on my nerves.” Like, “Ugh, go somewhere else for a minute.” And Ciri, you can, you can see, like Ciri’s like, expecting this to blow up. But what Geralt's like no, all right, like, he's annoyed at Ciri too. But ultimately, like, he seems very aware of the fact that she's a kid, which, you know, speaks kind of secondarily, I think to his, to his good character, ‘cause, you know, he's like, are you going to be quiet? And of course, she doesn't, like she can't be quiet for more than like, you know, 30 seconds. And, and he just like, “Alright. So can, can I hold the reins? Can I do this? And just like, you know what, fine here, just... sure.”
ALYSSA: That's a really lovely segway to the actual conversation between Yarpen and Ciri as well.
ALYSSA (VOICEOVER): Before we listen in on Yarpen and Ciri’s conversation, we're gonna hand it over to Lars from WitcherFlix for recent news on the Netflix show. When we come back, Lea, Madi, and I will continue our discussion of Blood of Elves, Chapter 4.
“Tidings from Toussaint”
[“Tidings from Toussaint” theme music by MojoFilter Media]
LARS FROM WITCHERFLIX: Hey, it's Lars from WitcherFlix and this is "Tidings from Toussaint". Welcome back everybody!
This Friday is the day we've all been looking forward to: On July 9 the WitcherCon will finally take place. This global celebration of the Witcher is brought to us by Netflix and CD Projekt Red; so it will be about the Netflix show, but about the video game series as well. We know that a lot of actors and producers from the Witcher show will be there for interviews, insights into season 2 and even a Witcher trivia quiz. During the WitcherCon there will be segments with Henry Cavill, Anya Chalotra, Freya Allen, Mimi Khayisa (who plays Fringilla Vigo) or Paul Bullion, the new actor for the Witcher Lambert. The perfectly named pub quiz-style game "Geralt of T-Rivia" sees producers from the videogames as well as showrunner Lauren Hissrich and Blood Origin showrunner Declan de Barra. Last but not least, we will be able to look behind the scenes of the Netflix anime film "Nightmare of the Wold", together with its producers from Studio Mir. So, there is a lot to expect on WitcherCon, so don't miss the two live streams on July 9th and July 10th. Find the exact times on WitcherCon.com or breakfastinbeauclair.com. Of course, you will learn about everything important from WitcherCon in the next episode of “Tidings from Toussaint”.
In other Netflix Witcher-related news Witcher season 2 director Stephen Surjik was busy in the last two weeks talking about his work on the set of The Witcher. In an interview with ComingSoon.net he talked about what it was like shooting a TV show during the pandemic: "[...] I went to England to work on The Witcher. It was going to be two episodes. I started this in December of 2019. And as you all know, by March 13, 2020, we were all on a plane on the way home wrapped up like we’re on our way to Mars. Everybody was running from COVID and we didn’t know what to do. Two or three months went by and Netflix was incredibly supportive at a time when everyone was afraid, and everyone was paranoid that the world was collapsing. It was amazing. But anyway, three months later we went back, and they had labs set up on-site and we were working away. We worked for another year, almost before it was completed, and that was for a number of reasons. But it got stretched out. So, I didn’t know when I was going to be done."
Stephen also talked about what the actual Witcher set looked like: "I just got off The Witcher in England. I did two episodes and it was — I can’t tell you how many days of shooting we had. It just went on and on. I was there for a year and a half! [...] In the case of something like The Witcher, I get all the prep time, the shooting time, but some days we were shooting just a few shots because it was all special effects. There were stunts involved, there were large crowds, it was difficult to get."
In another interview, this time for Combat Radio, Stephen Surjik talked about what Henry Cavill is like on the Witcher set: "When Henry shows up on set, he shows up on time, he shows up in character, with his costume, on his mark and he knows all his lines. He knows the background to what he is doing, he knows what came before and what comes after it.(...) If someone is new there, Henry Cavill will spot them and say 'who's that?' and he introduces himself and finds out what they are doing. He's amazing, he could be a politician!" Wow, Henry absolutely sounds like he is a joy to work with!
Anyway guys, that's all for today. I hope you all stay safe and well. And have a great WitcherCon! We'll talk again in the next episode of Breakfast in Beauclair. Until then, thanks again for listening and good luck on the path!
[“Tidings from Toussaint” theme music by MojoFilter Media]
Discussion
ALYSSA (VOICEOVER): Hey, everyone! Welcome back from the break. When we left off, the witcher, witcher-girl, and sick sorceress had joined a caravan of familiar dwarves, led by Yarpen Zigrin, on their mission to carry secret cargo to Aedirn.
ALYSSA: You know, on the box, uh once Yarpen sends Geralt away, Ciri kind of crawls up to join him. She starts peppering him with questions about Geralt's supposed neutrality and what does it mean to remain neutral. And Yarpen says, you know, it's to be indifferent. Yarpen's understanding of Geralt, he tells Ciri that, “If the Scoia'tael attack us, your Geralt to tends to stand by and look calmy on as they cut our throats, you'll probably stand next to him because it will be a demonstration class. Today’s subject the witcher's behavior in the face of conflict between intelligent races.” And Ciri responds, “I don't understand.” Yarpen says, “That doesn't surprise me in the least.” And the conversation continues and Yarpen tells her, “You know you've grasped the nature of the Scoia'taels quickly. You like the slogans. You know why you understand them so well? Because the Scoia'tael are brats too. They’re little snot heads who don't understand that they're being egged on. That someone's taking advantage of their childish stupidity by feeding them slogans about freedom.” And Ciri responds, “But they really are fighting for freedom. Like the dryads in Brokilon, they kill people because some people are harming them, because this used to be your country. And now there are people here, so the elves…”, and then um Yarpen gives her a little bit more context about prior to the Conjunction of the Spheres, there were battles between the Elder Races and then once the humans came, that's when all the non-humans turned against the humans. But he's even like a little frustrated. It sounds like about even the relationship between non-humans themselves uh because who the other is seems to change with the century. Yeah. And then he gets rather crude about the whole thing talking about um his whole point by the end is uh who wins and in his words, he says “He who shatters the skulls of others most efficiently and swells women's bellies fastest reigns.”, which gets him in trouble.
MADI: Yeah.
LEA: Right
MADI: Geralt just comes up out of nowhere as he does and he's like, “Yarpen restrain yourself a little.” —
LEA: Language.
MADI: — And then Triss is like, "Oh, what are we talking about? I'd like to learn more about the role of screwing in the evolution of society." And I'm just like, oh my god.
LEA: Oh I love that she's you know, he's just like, “Come on will you stop.” We, like language, please. and then Triss is like, “Oh, no, no, let him keep going. This is fascinating. Fascinating. Well, I don't know what this theory is. But I want to hear more.”
MADI: There's that. But then my thought is, like, for some reason, so many of Triss' lines so far in this book, just I don't know if it's just like, awkward, and it just kind of happens to be that anytime she's responding, it's about sex or something. But I'm just like, one of my notes here in my notebook is like, why are so many of Triss' lines about sex? Like, what is this saying about her character? Is this just like, happenstance.
LEA: She's so frustrated throughout this whole book. Poor Triss. And I think, as someone who hasn't played through the games, I think it's probably a very different depiction from what, what the games show ‘cause like, even at the very beginning of this book, right, and like, she shows up, and she's kind of excited because she's been invited by this guy who she's still hung up on. And she hasn't heard from in a while. And it turns out, she's just kind of like his bronze medal, because like, he felt too awkward calling up the person who could actually help. And she's just like, she's just like, relegated to essentially being a babysitter. And it turns out, she likes Ciri, and so it's not a big deal. Well, it's not a terrible fate, but she's just like, increasingly frustrated for like, months and months and months. And then she gets sick. And it's clearly like, she just is, you know, she can't deal. She can't deal. She just really wants a hug. A special hug —
ALYSSA: Yeah.
LEA: — and she's not gonna get one.
MADI: I get that. But also like Triss, like, it's just so weird to me that Triss and Yennefer are friends and everyone, even people under the Tree at the beginning of this book, everyone was very aware of Geralt and Yennefer's thing, and still, Triss is just like, any opportunity. And your Yarpen actually brings us up and like gives Ciri lesson on this later. But anytime Geralt is like kind or like respectful to her or helpful she's just like, “Is this the time? Is he in love with me yet?” Just like, oh my god, Triss like, ugh stop. Girl, stop!
LEA: She's such a mess.
MADI: Yeah.
LEA: She's such a mess.
ALYSSA: I feel like it's one of those lessons like even in IRL. Like when something's not for you. Like the, it's not for you, unfortunately. You just gotta like, pack up, move on —
MADI: Yeah.
ALYSSA: — that's like —
MADI: Yeah
ALYSSA: — It's not just romantic relationships that's like a lot of other things as well.
MADI: Yeah, like read the room.
LEA: Yeah but this is, I actually mentioned this uh later about something else, but I think it's just generally true. Like there's a lot of ,a lot of failures to read the room. In, in this Geralt and Triss are actually kindred spirits. They're both not very good at reading this room —
ALYSSA: Oh no.
LEA:— uh at least in this chapter, you know, Triss at least has the excuse of, you know, gastrointestinal, you know, distress.
ALYSSA: Only for this chapter. But yes. Only for this chapter.
LEA: That's true only for this.
MADI: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'll just keep to myself. I don't want to make any camps mad.
LEA: No, she's definitely, she's definitely over the top. And I mean, it also I agree, I agree with what we were talking about um before, which is, you know, like, she's sick with plot, essentially, like, she has like plot poisoning. And I'm not sure why we have to like, humiliate Triss in this way? —
ALYSSA: Oh, no, there's no reason. It’s just for, it was just for the plot.
LEA: — and like, and she could be sick and not be quite so tragic. —
ALYSSA: Yeah.
LEA: — Uh So you know...
MADI: I just wonder if it's Sapkowski kind of does this, he kind of, he chooses to make an example out of something or like a lesson. And of course, like, if you write things too subtly, it's like, maybe the readers won't get it. So sometimes he tends to like blow things up a little bit out of proportion? So maybe I think that's what it is, like, he's just trying to further illustrate that Triss is just so awkwardly in love with Geralt and he's just so like, there, there feel better? Ugh what is human interaction? I'm awkward.
ALYSSA: Oy vey.
LEA: Yeah, it is an excuse to teach uh you know, Ciri, this, this lesson that Yarpen, you know, kind of, kind of teaches her later about how you know, like, it's, you know, don't don't get confused if someone is just like, nice to you. —
ALYSSA: Mhmm.
LEA: —And you're surprised by it. Like, it doesn't necessarily mean more than just that.
ALYSSA: Right. Right. And I feel like that's, as you said, that just feels like a very timeless kind of thing to share. That’s all.
LEA: It's avuncular —
ALYSSA: Yes! How do you spell that?
MADI: Oh my god.
LEA: Oh, boy, uh, a-v-u-n-c-u-l-a-r. Avuncular.
ALYSSA: Oh lovely, that's not how I would have imagined it was spelled. So, we're doing really well today on my...
LEA: I'll be here, I'll be here all night. I just —
MADI: Oh, man.
LEA: — Not good for much. But I can tell you words that no one uses in conversation.
ALYSSA: Perfect.
MADI: This is definitely out of order. But I just flipped the page in my notes and um, Ciri and Yarpen quarrel when she's on the box. And then there's that part where he almost runs over a stump. And she's like, “Stump! Stumpy. Stump!” And he gets all pissed off, he's like, "Are you calling me short ‘cause I'm a dwarf?" And then she's like, “No, stump!” And he's like, “Oh dammit, like there's a log.” And I, just reading that, Ciri is a little bit of a trickster. So I'm like, does she call him that at first? And then it just like happens that it's a great instance because there is a stump in the road? Or is she just like, being oddly vague about the danger in front of them like, I don't know, just a funny interaction.
LEA: I hadn't even read it that way at all. I was just like, oh, yeah, she's being insulting and he's getting pissed off. And he like, almost drives over a log. And then she has the temerity to be like, well, it's a good thing I was here otherwise, you would have ridden right over that log. Uhm but you're absolutely right that like she's, she's definitely like, you know, she's, she's going back and forth. And then later she's like, hm, you know, you know, like, well, there you see if, because he's complaining. He complains before that he can't piss off the boxes. There's too many ladies in his wagon. Now she's like, can you imagine what would have happened?
MADI: And she's like, stop drinking so much beer and then you won't have to.
LEA: Can you imagine what would have happened if you'd gone over that log while you were, oh, it would have been terrible. He's like, you know what, shut up. Just sit on the box, you know.
MADI: And then the other dwarves ride up and they're like, what’d you do, fall asleep?
LEA: Just not —
MADI: God.
LEA: —it's not Yarpen's day.
MADI: No.
LEA: It seems like he's resigned to like, I guess she's sitting up here now. I guess I'm looking after this feral child. Fine!
ALYSSA: Which is I think the beauty of their relationship. I think there's some point where he puts his arm around Ciri. I don't remember where it is in the, in the chapter, but he puts his arm around her, and Sapkowski notes that you know, he doesn't even have to bend over the way that Geralt did because they're the same height and they're very kindred spirits.
MADI: The next part, I know that you want to get to the elves and Shaerrawedd and stuff. But I think that this next conversation, they're like talking, they're eating this um porridge. They're talking about that we've been in the woods for too long for too long. I tell you, we're attempting fate. So it's a little bit of uhm potential foreshadowing of like, they're nervous about this caravan. Like they know that they're in a caravan that's like, why are] a bunch of non-humans transporting this giant caravan of super important military goods, you know, like, and so the party, the dwarven party themselves is aware that this is you know, nerve wracking and, and strange. They're like eating this porridge and one of them bitches about having to keep eating porridge. And they're dreaming about fish and then Ciri’s like “Let's go get some. There's some in the stream.” But I think they're sick because they've got spots and then all the dwarves are like, “Oh my god, take down your pants. We're gonna catch fish in it. Let's go!”
LEA: Yeah. That's one of those moments where I'm like, is she really that foolish? But like she may be right. Like, there's a lot of things that Ciri hasn't experienced.
MADI: Yeah!
LEA: She knows like she can tell monsters apart from a book, but like, she has no idea what a trout looks like.
ALYSSA: Yeah.
MADI: Yeah.
LEA: She's like, I don't know, there's some gross-looking fish in there. And they get really excited.
ALYSSA: For the pure comedy of it. It's great. The dwarfs are always funny. They were in The Bounds of Reason they are now and they will be through saga —
MADI: Yes.
ALYSSA: — but this is just a one of those little scenes that I think uh is very funny and very wholesome.
MADI: It's very sweet.
LEA: Yeah. And you also get a part that I like, which is how um Yarpen kind of uh sizes her up because this vignette begins with Ciri bringing a cauldron of water because she wants to use their fire to heat it up because Triss wants to take a bath, and Yarpen is like oh my god like this, it's full, did you carry this all the way? And she's like, yeah, I carried it. I can carry things. And some of the other dwarfs are like she's so cute. And Yarpen is immediately like, mmm she's tough. You can tell um but still once the water is hot, he's like, nah let me, you're gonna burn yourself, which again, he's very uncle-y, just like nah nah nah, look, I get it. I know you can, just let me do it. I'm more used to it.
ALYSSA: Right. The opportunity to just kind of like sit down, eat together and speak together offers them another moment to follow up on the conversation they had previously. It seems like Ciri has been thinking about this throughout the day, because she starts the conversation with like, “I like you.” And Yarpen says like, “Well, I like you.” She says, “But you're a dwarf. And I'm not.” And he's like, “What difference does that…oh. The Scoia’tael. You're thinking about the Squirrels.” It's, again, that kind of moment of uncle-ling or parenting uh for him where he just has to, again, break it down for a child.
LEA: This is one of those moments where I think Ciri kind of reveals how sharp she is? She mostly kind of stays in this child zone. My sense is that, it's like, maybe partly defensive, when she’s like, “what's the trout? I don't know, blah, blah, blah.” But in this moment, he's like, oh, boy, like that squirrel thing is not giving you any peace, is it? And she's immediately like, it's not giving any of you any peace. Clearly, she's actually noticed quite a lot. She's like, I can see that like, none of you guys are settled about what's going on. So who's right?
ALYSSA: Yeah. And that's the question that she brings to him is like, Geralt wants to be neutral. You serve King Henselt, even though you're a dwarf and the knight in the fort shouted that everybody's our enemy, everyone, even the children. She asks Yarpen who's right? And he tells her, I'm just gonna read it out because this, this excerpt is very long, but it cuts to the core of a lot of the different themes that we explore in this chapter. She says, “Who's right?” He says, “I don't know. I'm not omniscient. I'm doing what I think is right. The squirrels have taken up their weapons and gone into the woods. ‘Humans to the sea’, they're shouting, not realizing that their catchy slogan was fed to them by Nilfgaardian emissaries, not understanding that the slogan is not aimed at them but plainly at humans. That it's meant to ignite human hatred, not fire young elves to battle. I understood. That's why I consider the Scoia’tael’s actions criminally stupid. What to do? Maybe in a few years time, I'll be called a traitor who sold out and they'll be heroes. Our history, the history of our world has seen events turn out like that.” He talks about Elirena. We have not been introduced to this person yet. We'll find out later in the chapter what this alludes to, but we don't really find out here. He says, “If Elirena was a hero, if what she did is heroism, then that's just too bad. Let them call me a traitor and a coward because I, Yarpen Zigrin, coward, traitor and renegade state that we should not kill each other. I state that we ought to live, live in such a way that we don't later have to ask anyone for forgiveness. The heroic Elirena, she had to ask. ‘Forgive me’, she begged, ‘Forgive me.’ To hell with that. It's better to die than to live in the knowledge that you've done something that needs forgiveness.” There's a brief line here that notes that Ciri instinctively felt she shouldn't ask any questions, and she should just be silent and let Yarpen continue. He says, “We have to live next to each other, we and you, humans, because we simply don't have any other option. We've known this for 200 years and we've been working toward it for over a hundred. You want to know why I entered King Henselt’s service. Why I made such a decision? I can't allow all that work to go to waste. For over 100 years we've been trying to come to terms with the humans. The halflings, gnomes, us, even the elves. I'm not talking about resulkas, nymphs, and sylphs. They've always been savages even when you weren't here. Damn it all, it took a hundred years but somehow, or other, we managed to live a common life next to each other, together. We managed to partially convince humans that we're not so very different.” Ciri says, “We're not different at all, Yarpen. We're not different at all. After all, you think and feel like Geralt and like, like I do. We eat the same things from the same pot. You help Triss and so do I. You had a grandmother, and I had a grandmother. My grandmother was killed by the Nilfgaardians in Cintra.” The dwarf responds uh with some effort “And mine by the humans in Brugge during the pogrom.” You know, between their discussion on the box and this follow up discussion here we learn a couple things about Yarpen’s place in this, and uh where he kind of sits on that line. You know, he had told Geralt previously that no, I'm decidedly on the human side, because he thinks that the Scoia’tael’s purpose is silly and detracts from the progress that they've been working toward for so long. When they were on the box, he spoke about expecting Geralt’s neutrality. He also said, you know, between the last discussion and this one, the slogan “Humans to the sea” is fed to them by Nilfgaard and it's not meant to encourage elves into battle. “Humans to the sea” is meant to, it's meant to start up hatred, not just, not just in a rally, but in response as well. —
MADI: Yeah.
ALYSSA: — Which I think is really, really timely —
MADI: Really on the nose, as you've said.
ALYSSA: — just with everything, everything that's yeah, uh I think just with where the world has been lately, so like this one specifically, um it's something that's being told to non-humans in order to make humans angry, um which, yeah, feels very uh, unfortunately, very timely —
MADI: Yeah.
ALYSSA: — And then Yarpen kind of talks about why this personally is important to him. Um and it comes down to his own personal values, for sure. Um yeah, but super, super dense stuff. What did you guys think?
MADI: This chapter in particular, I'll talk more about uh the end, but this chapter, particular just hits me like, to my core, because I am a very sensitive person not when it comes to like, gory stuff, or like gross things, but um like people's emotions, like I pick up on them very easily. I try to be very empathetic in everything I do, and this, compared with you know, I'm unfortunately, it's been like the last forever, that this feels timely for, but in my life span, at least like the last 10 years or so, or when I really was able to be a real human and like realize, “Oh, my God, this world is so dark.” Being a sensitive person, and it's sometimes, it's just like, “Ugh, I want to help you. But you're like, ugh, wha- like which side do I choose?” So I feel Yarpen’s pain of being like, I'm on the human side, because he thinks that's what will keep him safe, and and what's right, when he's only given one option, or the other, you know. The Witcher is a very gray world, it's not black and white, and I think this is a perfect example of that. But unfortunately, there's, sometimes when you have to choose. And so it's just kind of like, “Ugh” and then he, then he's saying, but I know the elves are wrong, you know, I know, they're being brats or which is his opinion, you know, the elves probably have a laundry list of grievances that they can bring up, you know, but it's just, it's just that whole thing of, what all of us probably feel whether we're, quote, unquote, “on one side or the other”, or feel like we belong to one group or the other. It's just like, “Fuck!”
LEA: Yeah, for sure. And I had some, some notes from the first time we talked, um was the first night of Passover. And so it was like, on my mind, still is the context for my sense of like, the last, you know, year and a half is that my family is Jewish, and my husband's family is from Taiwan, so it's kind of just like, well, here we are kind of caught in the middle of these two things. We're like, no matter kind of where we go, we're going to be a minority, you know —
ALYSSA: Yeah.
LEA: —as an interracial couple, and like, you know, and it's all it's all a thing. So I've been thinking a lot about all that stuff. Um but having been the first night of Passover, you know, like, and particularly I, I noted that, like the first time I read these books, it made an impression on me that Sapkowski uses the word pogrom, which is totally accurate to what he's describing, and uh legitimately, I think, like a Eastern European word, so it makes sense. Um but it's also a word that I first encountered uh learning about Jewish history. I think a lot of you know, Jewish American kids probably first encounter it in that context. So it creates this kind of emotional connection there. For me, um you know, every time that he used it to describe these kind of genocidal massacres that happen in this world —
MADI: Mhmm.
LEA: — and just this moment, where, you know, I mean, Ciri, like, I don't know, she has a tendency to almost think at this point in the story of the Nilfgaardians as like, sort of other than human? But for sure, you know, I mean, he says his, his grandmother was killed by humans and like, so was Ciri’s grandmother, right? Like, there is a common thread here. Um and, and this, like Sapkowski doesn't really pick up that thread until much later in the sort of cycle. But the common thread is definitely that like this thread of like loss and sorrow, right like that they both have experienced this. And uh another thing that I, that I think is really interesting is that, I think, previously either in this book or one of the earlier ones, Geralt’s neutrality is framed up, at least sometimes in terms of his um longevity? Like there's this idea that like because he's a witcher, because he lives a really long time, he just like, can't get involved, right because he's knows that like these things are going to blow over and like, you know, it's just different when your timescale is different.
MADI: It'll just show up in a different way, you know, so it's kind of like, “Ugh do I have the energy for this?”
LEA: Right, exactly. But it's cyclical.
MADI: Right.
LEA: Exactly. Um, but you do see, I mean, like it, you know, there's also the implication, right, like dwarves are also pretty long lived, right? Like, and so are sorcerers and wizards, so, so you definitely see the reasoning behind that argument, but you also meet a lot of people who have very similar, you know, age ranges —
MADI: Mhmm.
LEA: — and very different perspectives about like, what they ought to do and what their responsibilities are, which is just a really useful way of kind of viewing the world through a lot of different lenses.
ALYSSA: I think it's interesting to hear once you bring up that both Yarpen and Ciri have that thread of loss. How they both respond to it, you know, I think it's despite the loss of Yarpen’s grandmother, he still wants to try. He still believes in that momentum of camaraderie, or just at least the need to work together, even if it can be transactional, right? Ciri? It almost feels like she's still at the point where you know how with like dogs and babies, they look to you to see how you react before deciding how they should react?
MADI: Yes.
LEA: Totally.
ALYSSA: It still kind of feels like that uh with Ciri where you know, when she was in Kaer Morhen, this is at the end of Chapter 3, when Triss starts talking about politics and what the Nilfgaardians did to her at the Second Battle of Sodden, Ciri jumps in and she's like, “I'm gonna kill them all, because that's what you've been teaching me. That's why I have a sword.” And you know, she, she has been in this environment where she's been encouraged to defend herself to fight —
MADI: And stand up for what's right too, not just herself.
ALYSSA: —Right? And Geralt knocks her down immediately. He says, “No. If that's what you're going to do with your training here, then you're going to stop.” You know, she had a very adverse reaction to that. But again, here, you know, they're talking about their loss. And it seems like Ciri, still, I don't know, she's responding to it much differently than she had previously.
MADI: She's torn. She's seeing different sides of it now, you know, instead of just her experience in the massacre at Cintra, or, you know, whatever, she, she saw the boots of the past elves at the fort. You know, she's hearing these things. She's hearing her mentor, Geralt, although he's neutral, it's still a very strong opinion. And then, you know, just wink, and she hears everything, because she's just always eavesdropping as kids do. Um but it's just wild how it's like, she's looking to them, but she's still picking up on it. And it's, it's so many different opinions at once that it's like, oh, God, like, I can only imagine not just being a kid, but also being presented with like, all of the choices at once is like —
ALYSSA: Yeah.
MADI: — really making her head swim.
LEA: Yeah. And she's processing a lot, right, like, and we get to that a bit later in this chapter where we kind of get a glimpse of maybe some of what she might have seen after Cintra. And before Geralt —
MADI: Yeah.
LEA: — it's a really nice callback to that in Chapter 2, which, I, you know, as far as we know, as the readers, right, like is maybe the first or certainly the worst fight up to that point that she's had with Geralt, right? Where she like, runs away and uh, and almost kills herself like, basically, I mean, not deliberately, but like she almost falls and like she was almost very seriously injured, and it's kind of a miracle, but she that she makes it out but um, you know, she just goes nuts, you know, and she's just like, you've never taken this away from me this sword like, this is all I have and so yeah, it's her growth, is very painful. She has a lot of growing pains in this book. Like everything that happens to her just seems like so hard. The world really beats Ciri up this whole book.
MADI: Yeah, spoilers. Anyway, Cintra, all the other perspectives, then she's with Geralt, then she's at Kaer Morhen and now she's you know, in the real world where all of these viewpoints are very, very pertinent and very in her face, and not just like a topic of conversation, like over dinner, but like, shit this is happening right now. She was brought up to defend herself and defend others. And then, you know, she was kind of torn down a little bit at Kaer Morhen with that, the whole sword thing, and so I just feel if I were Ciri, in this situation, it would be like, but you, you taught me this? And I'm seeing this and you know, this is, this is what should be right, but what is right? You know, just that, how do you explain this to a child or even to yourself, but you're still having to make a choice.
ALYSSA: And I think that's the universal theme that we kind of come back to continually in the Witcher series, and we've talked about repeatedly on the show is you always believe that you're the hero —
MADI: Yes.
ALYSSA: — no matter what side that you're on. And uhm, you know, Ciri is grappling with that. She doesn't really understand who's right, who's wrong. Yarpen sits on one side. Geralt sits in the middle. The Scoia’tael are on the other. Uhm and the Nilfgaard is, you know, there kind of whispering in their ears. But that is something that we also get to explore more deeply in the next few sections as well. How do we actually define that call to heroism, I think? And uh what actually compels people to take up these slogans and these values um and to actually, you know, compel them into, into battle. I keep coming back to that line in the middle of Yarpen section where he says that, you know, the Scoia’tael don't understand that the slogan is not aimed at them but plainly at humans. And it's meant to ignite human hatred, not fire young elves to battle, because it's like, who is this for? Is it really for elven freedom? Or is it for the Nilfgaardians to further their political and militaristic pursuits on the continent? There's so many players in this world, um and trying to distill it, you know, even for a child is still complicated. Uh but it gives us, it gives us plenty of space to go uh for the rest of the saga as well.
MADI: Oof. Sorry, listeners. This chapter is heavy.
ALYSSA: It is. It is. And uhm actually, I think that is probably a good time to end this episode?
MADI: Like this recording or Chapter 4?
ALYSSA: No, I mean, like this, because we've already we've also been recording for an hour or so that actually uh —
MADI: Oh shoot.
ALYSSA: —that's basically a whole episode, is what we just did, cause of how dense it was.
MADI: Yeah. It's good. It just slaps real hard right now, because... Yay! The world is a fuckin’ mess! Oh my god!
LEA: Yeah, also I mean, it's hard to come up with slogans. I mean, you know, it's, it's, I feel like this is a it's an accusation that gets leveled that a lot of slogans —
MADI: Mhmm.
LEA: —right, like, someone is always gonna be like, well, that's just inflammatory, you know, but like, slogans are tough, you know like —
MADI: Mhmm.
LEA: —so hard to come up with a good one. Uhm but he's got a point. You know.
MADI: The whole point of a slogan is to grab your attention, right? It's marketing —
LEA: Yeah, absolutely.
MADI: —even even here, the Nilfgaardians are marketing to the Scoia’tael, like they're just using them as pawns to fight down their enemies. But like, they still have to market to them and give them some sort of reason, like, this is why you should buy our paper towels.
ALYSSA: I just, maybe it is like me with my like, design brain working? But like, I find the duality of that slogan so interesting like “Humans to the sea”. It's specifically something that the Scoia’tael can, you know scream when they, when they run into battle, it's something that they can, you know, shout to each other. It's something that can give them conviction and purpose. But that's not the point of it, or at least that's what Yarpen tells us. You know, it isn't for the Scoia’tael. It's for the humans that they're going to go kill, and it's meant to enrage that specific faction. And like, the psychology of that, I find absolutely fascinating, and of course, I think relevant to our current social and cultural plane at the moment, and the political landscape that we see particularly in the U.S. It's so interesting, just that one, that one sentence, and I, uh, yeah, find it fascinating.
MADI: Oh yeah.
LEA: And I think, you know, the more I think about it, the more I think Yarpen has a point and I don't remember, maybe one of you do, whether we learn that this theory, this like Nilfgaardian backed rebellion theory is in fact true. But he's right, right like that, I mean, the the slogan, it's not like land back, right. It doesn't even talk about elves, it's not like elf liberty, or elf, you know, like, it's it, “Humans to the sea”, like he's right that like it's very, it's not even like solidarity, right? Like, it's not even something that you would think they would like, say to themselves when they're alone —
MADI: Mhmm.
LEA: —or like put on a t-shirt or necessarily, right, it's just sort of like it's very transparently targeted at humans.
MADI: Yeah. I'm trying really hard not to say the slogan that I'm sure we're all thinking of.
ALYSSA: Right.
MADI: But it's, it's like that one in the way that it's like, so broad, and so broadly, vaguely, specifically positive. You know, I can't even put a word to it, but it's so applicable and so twistable that it's like ughhh. Aarghh!
ALYSSA: They're both so undefined and inactionable?
MADI: Yes.
ALYSSA: There's like nothing —
MADI: Thank you.
ALYSSA: — when you say like humans to the sea. It's like, okay, but, but how?
LEA: Yeah, there's definitely different kinds of slogans, right? Like, it reminds me most of like, some kind of anti-colonial slogans —
ALYSSA: Mm.
LEA: —like England Out of Ireland?
ALYSSA: Yeah.
LEA: Right? But even that, like if you're Irish, right, and like you’re republican or whatever and that's your chosen slogan. You know, it has the word Ireland in it. I mean, not to be too like, plodding, but like, this slogan doesn't even have that. It's just it would be like, if the slogan was just like England Get Out, which might work —
MADI: England Get Out.
LEA: — but it also like, I would be much more sympathetic to someone being like, that sounds like it was planted by a provocateur, you know what I mean? Because it's like, it doesn't have that like connection to the people to like the actual grievance, which is what I think makes Yarpen’s argument much more believable. The elves have had tons of battle cries, right? Like in the hundred or so years that people have been here and even before then, right, like, they say, Elerina, or you know, whatever, we see this later, they have a bunch of different slogans. I think this is a spoiler, should I...they eventually run into some elves. Um, and like, I don't think any of those elves ever say “Humans to the sea”, right? Like, it's not.
MADI: Yeah.
LEA: It doesn't even seem to be in there like vocabulary of like things that you say when you're fighting or when you're like in conflict or arguing. It's doesn't seem like a slogan that's very reflective of like, their cultural kind of framework.
ALYSSA: Yeah, although, um two things. Tom Canton, who plays Filavandrel in the Netflix series, who’s like basically the King of the Elves, sort of, but not really often, posts that, he puts “Humans to the sea” on a lot of his posts, which is obviously very fun. Uh the other interesting thing, you know, based on Witcher lore is that elves came from the sea. So they came in on white ships and came into the continent and uh, started fighting with the gnomes and the dwarves that were there. So it's interesting that, you know, conversely, their slogan is now “Humans to the sea”.,
MADI: I think Yarpen says that when they're talking about the elder races —
ALYSSA: Yeah.
MADI: — with Ciri, I think he mentioned, you know, they came on their white ships, like you just said, and then you guys showed up on your white ships. So it's like, what are these white ships?
ALYSSA: We've spent, like the whole last section theorizing and philosophizing about what is going to happen? What are all these factions doing to each other? What does it mean to be on the side of neutrality? What does it mean to select a side? And we've been eyeball deep in conversation, the last couple of pages and once we get to the back half of the chapter, that's when everyone's, you know, theory is actually put to the test and we get to see all of these values in action.
ALYSSA (VOICEOVER): Before we wrap this chapter, we’re going to end our discussion here. Join Lea, Madi, and I in the next episode of Breakfast in Beauclair for the final part of our discussion of Andrzej Sapkowski’s Blood of Elves, Chapter 4.
Outro & Credits
[Breakfast in Beauclair theme music by MojoFilter Media]
ALYSSA: Thanks for joining us at the breakfast table! For show notes, transcripts of each episode, and a complete list of our social platforms and listening services, head over to breakfastinbeauclair.com.
Breakfast in Beauclair is created by Alyssa from GoodMorhen. It’s hosted by Alyssa with the “Tidings from Toussaint” News Segment by Lars from WitcherFlix. The show is edited by Alyssa with music by MojoFilter Media.
Breakfast in Beauclair is produced by Alyssa in New York City with Luis of Kovir, The Owner of The Churlish Porpoise, Arix the Godling, Katie (The Redhead of Toussaint), Jacob B., Ayvo of Gulet, Bee Haven of the Edge of the World, Charlotte from Vengerberg Glamarye, RedKite, The Original Roach, Codringher’s Cat, Dustin, Libby, Clare Odell, Jennidy Mundilovitch, Brett from California, Wolf, Corey from the US, John of Ryblia, and Sebastian von Novigrad.
Special thanks to Lea and Madi for joining us for this episode and our international hanza for their support.
Transcriptionist: Krizia Casil