Ep. 26 — "Rare Species" from Netflix's The Witcher (Part 2)

Rob, TheUndeadGamr, from England returns to join Alyssa from GoodMorhen for the second half of our discussion of “Rare Species”, the sixth episode in season one of Netflix’s The Witcher. Very important bits include: “The Eyck Show”, Ciri’s storyline, the opportunity to translate philosophy and morality to the adaption, practical effects, a detailed comparison to “The Bounds of Reason”, the impact of changes to Geralt’s last wish from the previous episode, “Zeal!”, and “cheeky chappie.”

This episode is available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, and Stitcher.

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In this episode

• [00:00] Cold Open

• [00:00] Introduction

• [00:00] Discussion

• [00:00] “Tidings from Toussaint”

• [00:00] Discussion

• [00:00] Outro & Credits

Relevant Links

• Breakfast in Beauclair Listener Survey: bit.ly/listenersurvey2020

• Breakfast in Beauclair Hanza Takeover: bit.ly/thehanza

• News: The Witcher Season 2: Ciri is filming in an English forest with smoke and fake snow (Redanian Intelligence)

• News: Witcherflix: Even more news from the set. (Instagram)

• News: The Witcher Season 2 has been filming night scenes at one of London’s most haunted cemeteries (Redanian Intelligence)

• News: Henry Cavill is filming The Witcher Season 2 in England’s beautiful Lake District (Redanian Intelligence)

• News: UPDATED: The Witcher Season 2 setting the stage for a waterfall-crossing on shaky ground (Redanian Intelligence)

• News: The Witcher Season 2 filming inside a quarry in the Lake District with Geralt and Lambert (Redanian Intelligence)

• News: The Witcher Season 2 adds director Louise Hooper, possibly replacing Geeta Patel (Redanian Intelligence)

• News: @declandebarra: Pitched what a thought was a really poignant dark backstory for a side character in the room today, and all the writers laugh. Apparently I pitched part of the storyline from Disney’s The Little Mermaid (which I have not seen). Top fuckin shelf. (Twitter)

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Transcript

Cold Open

ALYSSA: I feel like that's what we should say to each other now. Not, “You can do this.” “You were anointed for this.”

ROB: Alyssa, anytime you got any problems, let me know. I’ll help you out. Don’t worry. I got you.

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Introduction

[Breakfast in Beauclair theme music by MojoFilter Media]

ALYSSA: Welcome to Breakfast in Beauclair, a global Witcher Podcast. My name is Alyssa from GoodMorhen, and I’ll be your host as you, I, and our international hanza accompany Geralt of Rivia and his destiny, Cirilla of Cintra, across The Continent.

[Welcome]

So, before we get started today, just a couple quick announcements: Now that we’re in the back half of Episode 6, we’re inching closer to the end of Season 2 of Breakfast in Beauclair. I did count my months wrong in the previous episode, so Season 3 of Breakfast in Beauclair will start in March 2021. And to keep us nice and cozy ‘til then, I’ve got two things for you guys.

As I’m preparing for Season 3 of the podcast, I’d love your thoughts on what you guys feel has gone well in Season 1 and Season 2, what you feel can be improved, and where you’d like to see the show go in future seasons. So, that being said, I have a survey up. Thank you so much to everyone who’s already taken it. I’ll be putting it on the website as well as across social media and you can go to it directly in your browser at bit.ly/listenersurvey2020, that’s bit.ly/listenersurvey2020.

And the second thing I’ve got for you guys that I’m so excited about: over the break, I’d love to feature you guys across the Breakfast in Beauclair social media channels. I’ve got a vision in mind [laughs] I know what I want to do for this, and all I need is you guys. So, head over to bit.ly/thehanza, that’s bit.ly/thehanza, in order to take part in this Breakfast in Beauclair Hanza Social Media Takeover. Through this, you guys will be able to meet other members of our community from all over the world, it’ll be really fun! So check out the link: bit.ly/thehanza and come join in.

[Patron Announcements]

This week we have two new members of our community to welcome to the company! Welcome Amber and Clare Odell, who join our hanza on Patreon.

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[Episode Details]

As for this episode, Rob, TheUndeadGamr, from England returns for the second half of Episode 106 “Rare Species” from Netflix’s The Witcher. Join us for what is basically “The Eyck Show” we discuss Ciri’s storyline, the opportunity to translate philosophy and morality to the adaption, practical effects, a detailed comparison to “The Bounds of Reason”, “Zeal!”, and “cheeky chappie.”

In our mid-episode news segment, “Tidings from Toussaint,” Lars from Witcherflix shares on-set updates for Season 2 of Netflix’s The Witcher.

Without further ado, let’s get to the discussion for The Witcher Episode 106, “Rare Species” (Part 2).

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Discussion

[Breakfast in Beauclair stinger by MojoFilter Media]

ALYSSA: Interspersed throughout Geralt’s storyline, we see, in the present day, Ciri in Nilfgaard. After a struggle in the forest Dara and Ciri escape the doppler Mousesack. Fed up with her selfishness, Dara leaves. The Doppler, now disguised as Ciri, is captured by Cahir and reveals himself later to Cahir’s anger. So, the opening scene of Ciri’s storyline, doppler Mousesack is leading Ciri and Dara out of Brokilon. They continue to pepper him with questions until the doppler reveals itself and attacks them. They defend themselves with a silver knife causing the doppler to return to its natural form. Dara is knocked out and Ciri runs. I kind of forgot about this. But, when I watched the episode again this morning, the scene where they're actually exiting Brokilon and, like, Ciri is asking Mousesack all these questions, it gives me very much like, “Are we there yet?” vibes. Just like, “You’re very annoying.”

ROB: Yeah, absolutely.

ALYSSA: And I don't blame doppler Mousesack for just, like, getting fed up because who knows how long it takes them to actually exit that damn forest from the center of Brokilon. I think he's fully justified in just being annoyed with them by the end of it. It's funny to, like, see ourselves now relating more to the adults as we watch these things.

ROB: Absolutely. And I think – I think some of that also shows Ciri’s naivety. She's in the real world now, I suppose, to be honest.  

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: But, yeah, absolutely. I was well onboard when doppler Mousesack was just like, “I’ve had enough now. Get, get going. Like, come on.”

ALYSSA: I know. She’s just like, “Where are we going? Who's Geralt? Why is he important to me? Who did he save? Da, da, da, da, da.” He’s just like, “Oh, my god, shut up.”

ROB: Well, I don't think that doppler Mousesack was paid enough for this. I don't think he realize that and he was just like, “I'm done.”

ALYSSA: Absolutely. The effects of the waters Brokilon are starting to wear off. Dara becomes a little more clear headed and he's like, “Ciri, you do know what happens to people during a siege.” So, Ciri then takes that to heart and then she starts asking really personal questions to Mousesack based on what she knows about him. She eventually catches him in like he, apparently, hates the cold because he has arthritis. Ciri knows that the doppler, despite having, like, access to all of Mousesack’s memories in the adaptation, slips. And, after he's been caught, he then reveals that he's killed Mousesack. Dara attacks the doppler with a knife. They defend themselves. Ciri then realizes that the knife is silver. So, she holds it to the doppler and then he returns to his natural form, which, in the books – and we'll talk about comparisons to the books – doppler are described as a mixture of mud and flour. And, in the show, it's like—

ROB: Not that.

ALYSSA: it's like a gray of that. So, about the appearance of the doppler, in the books, a doppler is described as looking like a mixture of mud and flour. And it's very, like, amorphous. Like, its features keep sliding off of it. Matt D'Ambrosio, in the quarantine watch party, said that one of the original concepts for the doppler was something similar to a blobfish. I hope, you know, what a blobfish it looks like.

ROB: If you don’t, Google it.

ALYSSA: Yes.

ROB: Just Google it.

ALYSSA: Please Google it. Google it. They’re absolutely fantastic and terrifying at the same time.

ROB: Yup.

ALYSSA: But, so, Matt, on behalf of Hailey, also said that Hailey and a fellow writer went with the doppler because they're both obsessed with serial killers. And Matt, then speaking for himself, said, “My recommendation would be not to spend time alone with either of them based on this info.” And I don't know. What did you think of the fight scene between doppler Mousesack, Ciri, and Dara?

ROB: It felt very desperate. There was a lot at – a lot at stake here. You're really feeling for the two of them being, like, the age they are and being in this situation that they're in, where they're worried for their life, scared for their life, and trying to fight for their life. For the most part, the two of them did pretty well to start off with—

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: —until they kind of second guessed each other. It, all of a sudden, got real with like, “Kill him. I will – I’ll do it, you know.” And it's like, “You’re children.” Like, you know – and you can see in Dara being like, “What?” You know, like, “Oh, god, that's what we're doing?” Like, you know, it's um, I really like Dara to be honest. I think he's a really nice character that they've added in to be that real element to Ciri’s privilege, I suppose, as a – as a princess.

ALYSSA: Mhmm. Yeah.

ROB: But, as for the doppler, as for his appearance, I kind of thought it was, obviously, very different from the – from the books. But it wasn't really until my girlfriend pointed out that I realized, “Oh, yeah, that's – that's totally, totally different to how they're portrayed in the books.” I'm not sure how a blobfish as doppler would look. I mean maybe we'll see that if they do a adaption of The Eternal Fire. But the way I kind of saw that scene is that he's been hit by a bit of silver.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: Just enough for him to be hurt by it and it to affect him, but just not enough for him to lose his form entirely. So, I kind of see the way we see the doppler after him being hit by silver is him just about holding on to the illusion of a person. He's doing everything in his power to sort of keep something substantial going, because, also, I suppose, he's in danger now as well.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: That's kind of how I saw that portrayal in that very specific scene.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: But I don’t know. I wasn't particularly sort of mad or upset by it or anything like that.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: Just because I think there was quite a lot at stake in that scene. And I think, if he did turn into a blobfish, it would have lost the impact and the intensity of that scene and the two of them sort of fighting for their life and the danger being very, very real for the two of them. I think a blobfish would have lost, lost the impact.

ALYSSA: I think your interpretation is definitely really interesting. Like, that it might be kind of a halfway point between its mimicry of human form and its natural form.

ROB: Yeah.

ALYSSA: Definitely interesting. And I think that that's super possible even based on what we know about them because he still got his clothes on.

ROB: Yeah.

ALYSSA: It’s just something that will talk about in the comparisons to the books.

ROB: But I think, bare bones, it's like he's trying his best to stick to a humanoid form at the very least because that's what the situation calls for.

ALYSSA: Oh, yeah, and what production calls for. You know, when we look at what's feasible, in order to actually tell the story, we also do know that the production crew for The Witcher put a lot of time into practical effects, right? Instead of doing a lot of CGI, they tried to do as much as they could on set.

ROB: Absolutely. And blobfish may have been a CGI character as opposed to what we got and, whether it's 100 percent to the specific source material of the doppler, I'm always, always for real effects.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: Like, that's one of the reasons I thought the striga was amazing.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: Because that was a person in a suit. And that was – that was amazing. So – yeah.

ALYSSA: And the character shift that we see happens in the scene, as ROB mentioned, Dara does his due diligence in trying to question this creature. And then, when Ciri actually tells him to kill it, he falters. And then, surprisingly, she then tries to grab the knife and says, “I'll do it.” She's become much more hardened.

ROB: Absolutely. It really comes out of nowhere. And I think it's a mix of what the situation calls for. I think Freya Allan said it in the Netflix Witcher behind-the-scenes podcast. From Freya Allan’s point of view, Ciri is a princess. So, she doesn't see the real world, but she thinks the real world is within the city walls of Cintra. And it is to a degree, but it's not the wider world which she's then thrust into.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: For the first time, she really lets her guard down and understandably so because she's seen someone who she trusts, who's brought her up, Mousesack.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: Or who she believes to be Mousesack. So, I think it's really right that Dara really begins to question this. And, luckily, that does get through to Ciri because she's quite happily just like, “I'm fine. I'm safe now. Nothing is gonna go wrong with Mousesack.”

ALYSSA: Yeah, I also wonder, you know, as we've seen her harden as a character and, like, lose some of that innocence throughout the course of leaving Cintra, you know, I wonder if, despite that hardening, she still doesn't have, like, a full grasp of the consequences of what she's asking for.

ROB: Yeah.

ALYSSA: We do know that, based on Dara’s story, that he's experienced extreme violence as retaliation for Filavandrel's uprising. He has an understanding of the weight of death. I don't get the impression that Ciri does. I don't think that she really acknowledges what she's asking Dara to do. You know, of course, she's worried about her own life. You know, this Phantom of a Black Knight does spell death for her, but at what costs right now?

ROB: Well, yeah, you’re – I think you're right. She doesn't quite comprehend the consequences of what she's asking Dara to do or what she's apparently willing to do herself. She doesn't realize how big or monumental that is. And I think you get a little bit of Queen Calanthe in her, where Calanthe is willing to do anything and everything to make her kingdom safe regardless of the cost sort of thing. And I think we get a little bit of that in that scene in particular, but missing the comprehension of the actions where I think Calanthe does understand. Ciri doesn't.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: Yeah, she sort of shows her naivety. But, yeah, it would have been interesting had she been given an opportunity --

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: —to actually do the killing. And I'm sure that's something that future seasons will explore when we—

ALYSSA: Yep.

ROB: And that's all I'll say.

ALYSSA: Yeah. I was like, “Ah, spoilers.” Yeah.

ROB: But, yeah, it’d be really interesting to see how Freya Allan portrays that.

ALYSSA: Yes. And we do know that she's already training with a sword.

ROB: Yep. Watch out, y'all.

ALYSSA: As Rob mentioned, they don't get the chance to attempt to kill the doppler. Dara’s knocked out and Ciri runs. In the next sequence, she runs into a clearing and is captured by the Black Knight. This knight talks to the captured Ciri, who’s revealed to be the doppler. The knight and the doppler fight, but the Doppler escapes. It surprised me as an audience member. Obviously, this is a very new storyline. This is not something that have been done in the books. So, anytime we saw the storyline happen, it was a chance for me to be a completely new viewer. We see Ciri run into this clearing and that is revealed that she's not Ciri. That she's actually the doppler disguised as Ciri. And I have a lot of questions about this from a plot perspective.

ROB: Yeah.

ALYSSA: Like, why did the doppler turn into Ciri? Why did he run to the people that he should be running from? I was like, “This doesn't really make much sense in terms of the doppler’s motives, but whatever.”

ROB: I mean I don't know how I feel about the whole doppler storyline. Like yourself, it’s nice to sort of have something that surprises you or is new to view. I don't think it was done in such a way that didn't make sense to the source material or, you know, completely ruined it or anything.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: But, that very instance, yeah, I, I was also wondering what on earth is your motivation to go back.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: Because you're not going back to get paid because you've not done the job. So, what – why were you going back? It’s very odd.

ALYSSA: I know. I feel like Ciri talking to doppler-Mousesack. I was like, “Why didn't the Dryads make Mousesack drink the waters of Brokilon? Like, why would the doppler take Ciri in the wood alone and then assume her form? And then why would he head back to Nilfgaardian forces? Like, why does this happen?”

ROB: Yeah.

ALYSSA: I mean, regardless of whether it makes sense for the plot right now or not, you know, ultimately, it happens. So, we'll discuss it as such. At least in the context of the show, dopplers kind of inherit all of the memories and thoughts of whoever they choose to copy. So, the doppler has now copied Ciri. It now has copied this knight. As this knight is trying to be sort of nice to fake Ciri, the Doppler turns into this knight. He starts to question him saying like, “How could you not tell me what she was?” We, as an audience, don't really know what that means. As they start to brawl, the Doppler says like, “Do you really believe all this nonsense in your head about this prophecy? We think you're insane.” So, I'll link this in the show notes, but there is, like, a behind-the-scenes video about the stunt choreography. This was done by Vladimir Furdik. And it's like them testing out the scene before it's been done in production, which is pretty cool. And the other cool production thing that we got from quarantine watch party on Matt D'Ambrosio’s account is he said that, while they were shooting the Cahir-doppler fight, there were, like, five other stunt friends wearing incredibly photorealistic Eamon Farren masks off camera. And it was unnerving, although no one can ever have too much Eamon, which is cute. As we said earlier, the length that they went to with these practical effects.

ROB: And, like I said, I, I'm so, so glad that was the route they took. They add so much more realism to the scene and not just as a viewer but also as an actor because you're being able to interact with something real, something physical.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: One of my first pieces of work was I was an extra in Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince when I was about 15, I think – 14 or 15.

ALYSSA: Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Because I wasn’t – shoot, the girls who plays Triss Merigold, she was – she was in that, wasn't she?

ROB: She was. Yeah, she was. Yeah.

ALYSSA: Yeah. Okay. Keep going.

ROB: Yeah. Yeah. So, I, I was an extra years ago in that film – little film, Harry Potter. And I was in the Quidditch scene, Ron’s first Quidditch match in that film.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: And we were all sound [Inaudible 15:31], all dressed up, colors painted for, like, Gryffindor and all that sort of thing, flying flags around.

ALYSSA: What house are you?

ROB: I was put into Ravenclaw.

ALYSSA: Oh, okay.

ROB: But I'm actually a Gryffindor.

ALYSSA: Aww.

ROB: So, we’re sat there on this – outside with a massive green screen behind us on this stadium sort of standing type thing. And there's this guy on the grass in this field with a massive, massive pole with, like, a white cross at the top of it. And that's, like, our eye line tracker. And this guy is running back and forth and back and forth with this stick. And we're all looking – watching this cross just go back and forth and like, “Yeah. Wooh. Yeah, Ron. Wooh. Yeah.” You know, screaming and hollering and shouting. It's insane. It's insane to tell that story of like, you know, that's how they film Quidditch.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: Like, an audience perspective. But it can be quite hard to react to something that you're imagining—

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: —when it's not there in front of you. So, that'd be acting with something that's physical with practical effects. Yeah. Like, I'm always for it as a viewer and as a professional, you know.

ALYSSA: Yeah. So, we're learning a lot about our characters through this doppler even if it's not explicitly said to us as an audience what these clues mean.

ROB: And it’s only hints that we've had so far in previous episodes as well of the nature of Nilfgaard and why they're doing all this. Early on in the episode, where we're sat around the campfire with the dwarves, and Geralt, and Yennefer, and everyone discussing Nilfgaard’s zealousism. Or is that the right – is that a word?

ALYSSA: I don't know.

ROB: Zealousness.

ALYSSA: We could put it in the transcript and it might have a little squiggly red line under it, but that's okay.

ROB: We do really start to see Nilfgaardian motivations here.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: And why these knights are doing what they're doing, why Fringilla is doing what she's doing.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: They believe what they're doing is just. What they're doing is necessary. 

ALYSSA: Definitely leaves a lot more questions than answers. So, I'm sure that this will be built upon in later – on later seasons. Lauren did say, at the end of that quarantine watch party, that she can't wait to dig deeper into who this knight and Fringilla are in Season 2, who they are, why Nilfgaard is important to them, and where they'll go from here. She said it's one of her favorite parts of the new season. So, I suppose we have a lot to look forward to.

ROB: I'm definitely looking forward to it.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: You know, no spoilers. From what we then learn about in the books as we go on about this character, I think he's an extremely interesting character. I can't wait to see that and how that's going to be portrayed in the show.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: Yeah, it’s definitely something to keep your eyes peeled for.

ALYSSA: In the next scenes, Dara saves the real Ciri who had been bound to a tree and gagged. He saves her, but they choose to go their separate ways. We're kind of seeing, at the end of this, you know, not only is Geralt left alone at the end of the episode but Ciri is as well. She's been with Dara since Episode 2. We're now on Episode 6. And he's kind of served as, like, that partner and that voice of reason. If he wasn't in the series at all, Ciri would just kind of be alone and silent and would have no one to talk to or to bounce ideas off of. We wouldn't really be able to see her be challenged throughout the course of the series without some sort of foil or partner.

ROB: I think he brings a lot of humanity to her, being an elf.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: It grounds her. He comes across as a sort of a supportive guide in some ways of here’s the real world, you know, as additions – as new additions that aren't from the source material. I think Dara was great – was a very, very good addition that I think, as a whole, came out very positively for me in what his purpose was, why he was there, and what we, as an audience, got from that relationship between two of them.

ALYSSA: Mhmm. You know, I think, as you mentioned, because Dara is an elf, he serves as a really nice counterpart to Ciri because he's able to challenge her perceptions of her world. She's actually confronted with the reality of Calanthe's legacy and what she has on her shoulders because of it. I think, as you said, it definitely brings a little bit more humanity and complexity to Ciri’s character by having Dara there. We'll have to see where she goes in Episode 7 and 8.

ROB: Yeah.

ALYSSA: In the meantime, the knight has slaughtered all of the tavern patrons in pursuit of the escaped doppler. Fringilla is there and she says that, you know, a simple test of silver would have sufficed. So, it's interesting to see what causes him to fly off the handle, where those boundaries are.

ROB: I think it’s very clear that the way Nilfgaard looks at things is that, regardless of what I have to do or what must be done, the ends justify the means, you know.

ALYSSA: Mhmm. Yeah.

ROB: Like you said, Fringilla says, you know, a simple test of silver would suffice, but we still got a result.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: We didn't find the doppler. No. But we knew that the doppler wasn't here. It’s very telling because of their beliefs and because of their religious zealousness.

ALYSSA: Their religious zeal? Zeal?

ROB: Yeah. Yeah. That's – that’s the – that’s the phrase. Yeah, because of their zeal, they are willing to do whatever it is.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: Whether that's, you know, killing a tavern full of people or just a simple test of silver.

ALYSSA: Mhmm. And the way that she builds him back up, the way that she instills this confidence in him is quite interesting. She says something about like, “You supported the usurper. The white flame anointed you, yadda yadda yadda, a lot of religious inspired speak. She encourages him and acts as a sort of an advisor as we'll see not only in this episode but also in Episode 7 and 8. We learn his name here, Cahir. Closest the episode with this quote from the Witcher series, “The time of the sword and the axe is nigh.” And it's super creepy. Really well done. We get a very tight close up of his face as he says this. You know, we believe Eamon that he believes Cahir. Like, it's very well done in terms of how authentic and how genuine his belief seems to be. We see it here after the doppler told us about it earlier in the episode. Like, do you really believe all this stuff? And we get our answer by the end of the episode.

ROB: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Like, they’re 100 percent committed to the cause. And it's nice as well to see Cahir and Fringilla relationship here as well --

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: —and how they support each other—

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: —through all this. And, you know, yeah, like, Fringilla acts like his hype man and gets him back on track and is like, “No. No, this is – this is worth it. This is what we got to do. You know, you were chosen.” You know, it's really, really nice to see that relationship. And I hope we, we start to see more of that. I mean, yeah, I think Eamon and Mimi did a fantastic job. And, you know, I think she's a fantastic Fringilla. Sorry, not sorry, you know. So, the – I’m, yeah, looking forward to the two of them continuing and how their relationship grows if at all.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: You know, I hope – I hope he does. I hope we see more in Season 2 with the two of them.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: And it's just gonna be even more interesting to see what happens with the two of them as, you know, the saga continues. So --

ALYSSA: Mhmm. Yeah, I'm really curious to see what will happen. You know, we'll talk about this in the second half of the episode, but they don't have a relationship in the books.

ROB: Mhmm.

ALYSSA: So, I'm very, very curious to see how the show will handle this relationship.

ROB: Yeah.

ALYSSA: You know – but, yeah, we – it's funny that you describe Fringilla as his hype man. I can't imagine, like, someone hyping me up and saying like, “You are anointed for this.” Ah, I feel like that's what we should say to each other now. Not you can do this. You are anointed for this.

ROB: Alyssa, anytime you got any problems, let me know. I help you out. Don’t worry. I got you.

ALYSSA: No. But, actually, Matt D' Ambrosio mentioned this here as well. He says, “I could watch Mimi read the phonebook. I love her so dang much. I can't wait for everyone to see how much more rad Fringilla gets as the show goes on.” You know, she has such a lovely vocal presence.

ROB: There's something about her and the presence that she brings to this character. She's very calm, very methodical, very, like, calculated. You know, you can see like the cogs are working there. But the way she portrays herself and outwardly speaks to people – I don't know – there's just – there's something – there's something about it.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: And I think Mimi just does a fantastic job – an absolutely fantastic job. And, you know, she says all the right things to Cahir and not just, like, yeah, as a hype man but also just to really instill that zeal of, like, what we're doing is so important and we've got to follow it through.

ALYSSA: Yeah. They realistically portray their own belief. And I think it's very interesting to watch. No matter how the show deviates from this characterization of Nilfgaard, it's definitely a lot more religious. It's definitely different from how the books do it. But I do think that they play very well into what they've been given. That they play into this religious zealot role throughout the course of the series. So, I guess we'll see how that plays out throughout the rest of the show. But, for now, you know, this is what we know. Do you have any closing thoughts on – either on Ciri’s storyline with Nilfgaard or even Geralt’s storyline?

ROB: It’s definitely nice and very interesting where we leave our relationships with Geralt, Yennefer, and Jaskier, which is going to be all the more sweeter when we return to them reuniting once again and, and seeing how long it's been, what's transpired since. You know, we left on quite a devastating blow to everyone here. You know, Geralt to Jaskier, Yennefer to Geralt, and vice versa. You know, everything was – wasn't left on good terms. So, it’ll certainly be interesting to see what happens after. As for Nilfgaard, I think it's definitely gonna be interesting to see how far they will go. You know, we do see in the next couple of episodes what Nilfgaard are willing to do and I'll leave that there. But it will certainly be interesting to see the development of Cahir and, indeed, Fringilla with their quest as it were for the White Flame, for Nilfgaard and to see where their boundaries are if there are any.

ALYSSA: Definitely agree with your closing thoughts. When it comes to, you know, where this leaves our characters, I guess, we'll see. But it certainly sets them up for the end game as you could call it in Episode 7 and 8. So, before we jump into our comparisons to the books and standout parts of the episode, we're gonna hand it over to Lars from WitcherFlix for recent news on the Netflix show. When we come back, Rob and I will continue our discussion of Rare Species.

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“Tidings from Toussaint”

[“Tidings from Toussaint” theme music by Bettina Campomanes]

LARS FROM WITCHERFLIX: Hey, it's Lars from WitcherFlix and this is "Tidings from Toussaint". Welcome back everybody. The filming for season 2 is well on its way. The Witcher crew is shooting in England at the moment and let's see what's new on the Witcher set.

It all started roughly two weeks ago when Freya Allan posted pictures from the set at Deepcut in Surrey. They were shooting scenes at night. Thanks to Instagramer @davido10101, we have a lot of pictures from this particular set. There was a lot of artificial snow involved which could hint at this scene taking place in or around the Witcher fortress of Kaer Morhen. Redanian Intelligence revealed some more photos where we can spot a wild boar on the Witcher set. But there were even more creatures on set, most likely some not so-real ones: According to Redanian Intelligence and Instagramer @davido10101, we have some pictures of giant rocks and some fake trees with some otherworldly looking fake branches tangled around them. These branches as well as some leaks from a few months ago could hint at a special monster that could appear in this scene: It is possible that Geralt and Ciri are hunting for a leshen, the woodland spirit, in these woods, as part of Ciri's Witcher training.

In other news, Redanian Intelligence reports that the Witcher crew has also come back to London for another shooting location. It is the Highgate Cemetery, one of the most famous cemeteries (and most haunted) in the British capital. It is not only famous for its notable grave sites like the ones of Karl Marx, Michael Faraday or Douglas Adams, but also for the legend of the Highgate Vampire a series of supernatural activities taking place in the 1970s. So, you see, this is a perfect spot for The Witcher. But the question is: What could they be filming there? To answer this question, Redanian Intelligence refers to a post by Mahesh Jadu (who plays the mage Vilgefortz). He had visited a cemetery (most likely Highgate) together witch actor Lars Mikkelsen (who is the mage Stregobor). Redanian Intelligence speculates that this scene could show us a secret meeting of mages, maybe on an old elven burial ground. What ever this is actually about, it's going to be exciting.

After that we have learned that the production crew headed north and moved to the scenic Lake District in Northwestern England. Henry Cavill has already posted some pictures and videos from this area. Shooting location in and around the Lake District include Rydal Cave, the beautiful lake of Blea Tarn, Hodge Close Quarry with its eerie and dark caverns and last but not least Low and High Force Waterfall. Thanks to Redanian Intelligence, we have some set pictures where we can see that the crew has built the remnants of a destroyed bridge as part of the set. It is possible that this bridge might have been destroyed during the filming of a scene. Moreover, locals have reported that they not only saw how they were filming a wolf eating a carcass, but also Freya Allan and Anya Chalotra near the waterfalls. In addition, we have also learned that actors and actresses like Mecia Simson (who plays the elven sorceress Francesca Findabair), Jeremy Crawford (who plays the dwarf Yarpen Zigrin), or Paul Bullion as the witcher Lambert have returned to the Witcher set.

In other news, Redanian Intelligence has learned that The Witcher has added director Louise Hooper (known for Holby City or Cold Feet) to the Season 2 crew. Unfortunately we don't know yet if she has replaced another director or if she will be the fifth director in Season 2. Moreover, we have at least a teeny-tiny piece of news for The Witcher spinoff miniseries "Blood Origin" which is about the early history of the Continent in the Witcher world. Show runner Declan de Barra posted a funny, little anecdote from the show's writer's room on Twitter. He wrote: "Pitched what a thought was a really poignant dark backstory for a side character in the room today, and all the writers laugh. Apparently I pitched part of the storyline from Disney’s The Little Mermaid (which I have not seen). Top fuckin shelf."

Anyway guys, that's it for me for today. I hope you all stay safe and well. We'll talk again in the next episode of Breakfast in Beauclair. Until then, thanks again for listening and good luck on the path!

[“Tidings from Toussaint” theme music by Bettina Campomanes]

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Discussion

ALYSSA: Hey, everyone, welcome back from the break. I'm here with Rob discussing Rare Species from Season 1 of Netflix's The Witcher. When we left off, we had broken down the plot of the episode and, now, it's time to dive into the key points and themes that interested us most. So, in the second half of this episode, we're going to take some time to go into a few production notes about the music in this episode as well as do a deep dive into comparisons to the Bounds of Reason as well as the Eternal Flame. So, as we've talked about throughout, you know, a lot of Season 2 of Breakfast in Beauclair, one of the key points throughout the season has really been the use of music. One of the things that you want to talk about Rob was the use of Her Sweet Kiss. Do you want to introduce it to our audience?

ROB: Yes. So, I just thought it was interesting that “Her Sweet Kiss”, like so many of the music in the actual series, is just used throughout the episode in different forms, different arrangements—

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: —and sort of change and fit the mood of what we're seeing on screen, especially between Geralt and Yennefer. And they seem to really develop their relationship also developing in this episode. The closer they get and become, the more intense and finished Her Sweet Kiss becomes. And I think it really sort of comes to its big crescendo when they get into the tent.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: And I think the music just really – just adds and intensifies the scene. And then, obviously, right at the end during the credits, you hear the full song with the lyrics as well. It's just such a connection between the song and their relationship.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: There seems to be, like, a lot of parallels in, in the song to their relationship in being such a sort of stormy and almost volatile relationship in a lot of cases. It seems so, so intense between them. 

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: And I think there's just parts of the lyrics that really capture that. Her current is pulling you closer. You know, no matter where they go, it's like Yennefer says right at the start of the episode—

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: The witcher I've met and I can't escape you. And I think we said it during part one. The continent is so big. The world is so big, but the two of them have ended up in this same tiny pub in the middle of nowhere—

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: —doing the same thing. It carries along with themes of destiny and fate that, you know, is so prevalent throughout the Witcher in general. It fits that very well, that relationship – that kind of stormy, volatile rocky relationship. But there's just something between them. They need each other. And something kind of almost contradictory about the way they act. And then, you know, the song being called Her Sweet Kiss. Sweet wouldn't be one of the first words I'd use to describe Yennefer or even Geralt to be honest. And, and, like you said earlier, Hailey Hall, who wrote the episode, who wrote the lyrics to the song—

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: —which you know, says a lot about it. It's not just sort of palmed off and given to someone else to sort of right. The – you know, the person, who's writing the episode who knows what they're wanting to do and portray and how to show these characters, has written this song that, for me, feels so integrally linked to them as a couple in this journey.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: You know, right at the end with the crescendo of Borch, saying, “You know, I'm going to save you two a lot of hurt here,” but still I don't know.

ALYSSA: Yeah. I mean a couple thoughts when it comes to, as you said, the origin of Her Sweet Kiss, how it's used throughout the episode, and even just the lyrics on the title itself. We've seen variations of this all throughout the series with Yennefer, with Geralt, with Ciri, and then now this one encapsulating song that represents Geralt and Yennefer together. And I wouldn't be surprised if it uses somehow, you know, qualities in both of their themes or of their individual instruments because we know that Sonya and Giona associated specific instruments with specific characters as well. You know, as, as you said, Rob, there’s, like, this beautiful, tempestuous nature in their relationship and this magnetism that they can kind of never get away from. And this is something that affects the plot. It's something that affects, apparently, Jaskier’s interpretation of the relationship as well.

ROB: Mhmm.

ALYSSA: Which is a really interesting thing to see, you know, in terms of the story. This is Jaskier observing Geralt and Yennefer’s relationship and then writing a ballad about it. We're getting, like, an in world interpretation on top of the audience's understanding of these characters. And then your note about, like, the word sweet. I think, as you said, it's a really nice contradiction from what we know about the characters versus this lyric and this title here. But I almost see it as, like, something that's, you know, sweet, but also sour. Something that's, like, very indulgent, but not healthy. That's kind of how I saw it.

ROB: I totally know what you mean. Like, I'm a musician in, like, a loose sense. Like I play and I’ve performed in my job and my work and whatever. My sort of very, like, loose understanding that there's something there. And, like you said earlier, there's themes that are connected with certain characters, absolutely.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: And there are elements of when you hear the arrangement of this song in the episode that sound familiar to previous episodes where you've obviously heard those motifs because they're connected to said character, Yennefer, or Geralt, or whoever. And it's almost, like, you were saying this Jaskier’s ballad to Geralt and Yennefer in an artistic sense. There’s something meta about it when you hear it – hear the different arrangements of it because it's almost like the song is being constructed before your eyes or before your ears.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: But you're not seeing it in the same way that you saw it right at the start of the episode when he's strumming along and he's – he’s like, “Does that sound good? Is that gorgeous or beautiful?” whatever he says, you know, when we're actually seeing him construct the song.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: It's such a beautiful song and, like, I've listened to the soundtrack just like chillin’ out. It's genuinely what, like, my favorite song and, like, Joey Batey voice as well is beautiful. It's really, really nice. And it just goes really well with this song. I just – I don't know. There's just something about it. I think it's in the context of how it's been used. In the same way that, like, Toss a Coin to Your Witcher just made me, like, really hyped and excited. I'm like, “Yeah. Let's go.” This just – I don't know – connects you or connects me anyway in such a deeper way with their relationship and that stormy nature of it. It gets me involved more. It just pulls me in more, I think.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: Yeah, for that to be expressed not just visually but also in sort of lyrical and audio, I think it's just powerful. I think it's just powerful and that scene in the tent—

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: —was just – the music’s fantastic. Worked with it so well, the performances, the connection, the chemistry, everything is just – yeah.

ALYSSA: Yeah, that’s just one of the beautiful things, I think, about music in general regardless of whether it's like a soundtrack score or not. It's – it's just so immersive, right? And, like, it draws out these very visceral universal aspects of human emotion. And it just adds another layer to the experience. As you said, we’re all about the shared human experience here at Breakfast in Beauclair. So, again, one of the great things about this episode Rare Species, as with a lot of the episodes in the season, is that we do have a direct comparison to Andrzej Sapkowski’s original writings. In this case, we have the Bounds of Reason, which is from Sword of Destiny which we covered with Anita and Karolina from Witcher Kitchen in Episodes 8 and 9. So, you can definitely go back and listen to these episodes in-depth if you want another look at the content there. And we also have a little bit to go off of in Ciri and Nilfgaard storyline with Netflix dopplers versus book dopplers in the Eternal Flame, which we covered with Chris and Adi in Episode 11. Very broadly, this episode, Rare Species, did touch upon a lot of the basic plot points of the books. We do get a dragon hunt. We get Borch, who's a character in both the show and the books who recruits Geralt into going on this dragon hunt with him. We meet the dragon. There's a huge fight and then the ending. So, very, very broadly speaking, a lot of this stuff is the same, but some of the details are different. So, we'll talk about that here. To start, some of the characterizations of different people that we meet in the books is slightly different in the Netflix show. Broadly, the characters in the Netflix show kind of seem to take themselves a little bit more seriously in the context of the plot. So, we'll kind of see that in the way that they build relationships with each other mainly or, you know, in ways that they don't. And there are three characters that – at least in my opinion, that are slightly different between the show and the books and, in one case, doesn't even appear at all. The three characters that at least I noticed a difference in – and, Rob, you can obviously add to this list as well – are Borch, Eyck, and then a missing sorcerer in the books that we don't have in the show, Dorregaray. In terms of Borch, I think that what I had in my head was very different from reading the book description. So, in the book description, it says the stranger had thick, curly chestnut hair. He was wearing a dark brown tunic over a padded coat and high riding boots and he was not carrying a weapon. So, like off of this, I personally imagined Inigo Montoya from The Princess Bride. That's very much the kind of person that I was imagining. And then, when we get to the Netflix show, he is a little bit older. I do think the actor was great for the direction that they chose. We did find out in the quarantine watch party, according to Hailey Hall, who's the writer of this episode, Borch always gave her extreme Mr. Feeny vibes. And, if you're not, you know, in the US, Mr. Feeny is the teacher on Boy Meets World. He's very much like they portrayed him on the show. He's, you know, a little strict but very kind, very caring, warm, kind of this warm grandfather-like figure. And that definitely seems to be the direction that they went with for Netflix. Did you have any thoughts on Borch, Rob?

ROB: Yeah. Like, similar to you, I, I, I had no, no problem with the casting. I thought the costume was perfect for how he was especially portrayed. It would have been weird with the casting had they stuck to, I suppose, the original tavern scene from the books.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: Where, you know, they go off and have a bath together.

ALYSSA: Yeah, it's a big old orgy, we can say that.

ROB: Yeah. Oh, no. There you go. Yeah, big old orgy. I think, from the books, I imagined him just a little bit younger, very charismatic, very attractive, and sort of a bit younger, not, not too young, but, like – I don't know – maybe in his, like, mid-30s, possibly early 40s because the way he sort of comes across is like a very sort of successful businessman, charismatic kind of guy that goes to the parties and you want to be his friend. That's kind of how he almost comes across, I think, in the books.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: So, yeah, I, I think, if you'd have had the sort of orgy scene, it would have been possibly a little bit out of place because of the casting and the way he's portrayed in the episode. Yeah, I think, what I’m saying – right, he comes across as sort of like a grandfather figure or a sort of caring father figure, I think, in general, where he looks after – he's got a lot to say. He’s very wise.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: And it would have been a bit weird and out of place and possibly have made him seem creepy.

ALYSSA: Yeah. Yeah.

ROB: So, I'm glad they kind of stuck with a theme or portrayal with him in that sense.

ALYSSA: Yeah, I think my head canon is still Inigo Montoya.

ROB: That's amazing.

ALYSSA: I mean he's got the curly hair and everything. But that's – that's really where, like, my head was out. So, like, it was interesting to see, in this quarantine watch party, that was where that character’s decision came from. It was like the Mr. Feeny kind of vibes. You know, I was definitely surprised when we saw Borch on the show originally just because it was a huge secret. I remember when Lars and I went to Lucca in October before the series premiered. That was one of the big questions that Redanian Intelligence entity had. They wanted to find out at Lucca who was cast as Borch. Prior to the show's release, Press got advanced copies of the first five episodes, but not six, seven, and eight. So, it was a huge mystery. And it was a very big deal about who was cast as Borch, you know, as late as October. So, I think I was really surprised when I first saw it. But I do think, like, as you said, they picked a direction. They stuck with it. And it works well for what they decided.

ROB: I was always interested in people's interpretations of – I’ve even listened to the audiobook by Peter Kenny. I don't know if it's his interpretation of Borch, but he – I think he portrayed him as a bit more of, like, a cheeky chappie.

ALYSSA: What is that?

ROB: Oh, wow. That’s a – that's an English phrase, isn’t it? So, it's a bit sort of – you know, a bit – a bit funny, a bit – you know, a bit – a bit cheeky. A bit – I don't know. How, how do you describe a phrase or a terminology that you're so used to? You just know what it means.

ALYSSA: It's a funny thing about having people from so many countries and cultures. It's cool though.

ROB: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Cheeky chappie is kind of just sort of like a cheeky sort of likeable person really. But, yeah, I don't know. It's just – yeah.

ALYSSA: Totally makes sense. I could see it. Thank you for teaching me something new today. Yeah. So, I mean that's pretty much Borch. Like, a lot of really interesting things with this character in the books if you want to go back and read more about him. Definitely a different direction from the Netflix show, but, ultimately, one that, you know, works because they kind of contain to that character. One character that's actually missing in the Netflix show that does appear in the books is the sorcerer, Dorregaray. So, he's a sorcerer that's very much like a druid in the way that he thinks and acts and advocates for the world's inhabitants, all creatures. You know, between the books and the show, I could see why they took him out. Like, in terms of the plot, there's not necessarily, like, a major need for him, but he does offer a lot in terms of the ethics of why this dragon hunt is going on, which I'll get into it later, I'm sure, but I do think is missing from the show. But it's, ultimately, like, not really necessary for the sake of the plot. So, I understand why they took him out,

ROB: There seems to be elements of his character in the portrayal of Borch.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: It was interesting that, of all the characters they did take out, Dorregaray, he’s got a fairly prevalent part in the actual story. But, I agree, there's a lot of choices they've made for this episode, for the narrative of this episode, and the overarching narrative of the series as a whole, which really made them, you know, boil everything down to, to its sort of base components. What – what do we need to tell this story? And what do we need to tell the story that we're trying to tell overall?

ALYSSA: Mhmm. 

ROB: Because I think that's the thing as well that we possibly need to keep in mind as well, especially when we're seeing adaptions of the short stories especially is that these short stories, for the most part, are kind of just standalone stories. You can just read one of them and then leave. They don't necessarily connect—

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: —to each other in such a way that the series is meant to.

ALYSSA: Right.

ROB: So, when you've got, like, a whole story that you're trying to tell – a whole package, it’s very important that it, it makes sense.

ALYSSA: And, in terms of changes in characterization, there's one last character that is pretty different in terms of the Netflix series versus the books. And that's the lovely Eyck of Denesle. You know, there are certain qualities about him that are consistent between the books and the Netflix series. The religious zeal, as we talked about extensively in the first half the episode, still very strong between the books and the Netflix show. I think just like his general personality and demeanor is what's really different and how that kind of carries across. So, in the books, he's religious. He believes magic is an aberration. Witchers are an aberration. Nonhumans. What else? He basically does all the work a witcher does, but then refuses to take money. And Geralt says, “He's spoiling my business, the swine.” He's very pious and very virtuous in the books. So, like, it's interesting to see, like, the changes that were made to his character here. He's not taken nearly as seriously like in the writing of the show. He wasn't taken seriously in the books, but that's because people thought he was ridiculous and kind of an idiot. But, in the show, he's actually kind of an idiot. So, I think that's like some of the differences there.

ROB: Yeah, I think they – this is one of the biggest changes from the short story. It is Eyck just in general. Like, from the books, like you said, like, I kind of imagined him as a much more sort of experienced, sort of older man who, you know, does all these things. He’s very devout, very pious, very knightly, but is a joke, in that sense, where he kind of – I think he's sort of seem to almost strip all the fun out of being a knight or being an adventurer sort of – I think that's how he's kind of portrayed a little bit. I think, yeah, they – they've definitely made him a lot younger, a lot more naïve, and, because of that, he becomes more of a joke—

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: —in that sense. I mean it certainly wouldn’t have worked. With what they were doing with the episode with him and Yennefer's relationship and how they're introducing Yennefer to the story as a whole—

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: —and even how Geralt and Yennefer end up, you know, interacting as well in this episode, it wouldn't have worked—

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: —if they'd have stuck to Eyck from the story. Yennefer needed and in and having Eyck in this way, I think, was that in. Furthermore, it shows Eyck's naivety and in this portrayal, where Yennefer’s so just totally using him to get what she wants. You know, he thinks, “I'm going to slay this dragon and have a vassal state and have her as my advisor or, you know” – but that's absolutely not the case. You know, Yennefer will use him to slay the dragon, and then take what she needs, and then she'll bounce. “Cool. Thanks, bro. I'm out.”

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: And also just that, that horrible scene with the hirrika. Like—

ALYSSA: Oh, yeah, it's awful.

ROB: Yeah. Just almost like a – almost like a child. Like, you've given a child a sword and he's just like, “Aaah, battle everything for kingdom and glory,” you know. And he’s insane. Absolutely, insane. And people just standing there, looking at him, and being like, “Is this guy for real? Like, what the hell? Is, is there something wrong with him?”

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: It was certainly an interesting portrayal, but I think, as a whole for the whole episode, it made the most sense.

ALYSSA: And we'll definitely get to the exact changes that were made, again, particularly around this character in terms of the plot. Given the changes that they made, a lot of his usefulness from the books was ultimately cut.

ROB: Mhmm.

ALYSSA: To a certain extent, like, if he wasn't serving that specific purpose from the books, there was really no reason to keep his character exactly the same as it was, which, you know, now that I've talked about that in a very roundabout non-spoilery, like, way, we can actually get to some of the changes that were made between the Bounds of Reason and Rare Species. So, the basic premise of the story that Borch shares with Geralt in this tavern in the Netflix series is generally the same. We do know of a young King Niedamir, who is set to marry a princess. He wants to get rid of a dragon. Again, generally all the same. In the books, we do actually meet that King Neidamir, who joins the hunt himself. We also have a very extensive adaptation of the Polish legend Wawel Dragon, which you can hear about in Episodes 8 and 9 with Anita and Karolina. But we have an adaptation of that Polish legend in this character of Sheepbagger. He's a very, like, excitable peasant, who wants to be involved and, like, stamp his name on history. And nobody in the company wants that because they think he's an idiot. That's kind of like the general premise and the setup and some of the main characters that ultimately we don't see in the show. Again, I understand why they took it out. It's a lot of, like, fluff in terms of, like, secondary and tertiary plot points. But it would have been really cool to see, like, Wawel Dragon, which is very Polish make its way into the show.

ROB: Yeah, I think, on King Niedamir, he basically received an honorable mention. The reason they're going on the hunt is because of him. Like, in the grand scheme of things, he doesn't really serve that much of a purpose, except for this is the quest as it were. He's sort of like the quest giver.

ALYSSA: That works. Is there just like a light on him all the time?

ROB: Absolutely. Yes. Just a little question mark. He's like, “Yeah. What we didn't see is he's actually outside the tavern just – and you talked to him before you go in.” And that's kind of his purpose. And he's mentioned that that's why they're going on this quest. So, I don't think really, in the grand scheme, any more needs to be sort of said or shown or him to make an appearance. I think, for the, the Wawel Dragon, that was the one very interesting thing about those episodes of Breakfast in Beauclair 8 to 9 that I didn't know because, like I think we all know, they're all based on the short story. It’s very much based on fairy tales. And that was the one that I was like, “Well, that's not Beauty in the Beast.” That was interesting for me to hear about what it was actually based on, which is, you know, a folktale from Poland which was awesome. It, certainly, would have been nice to have seen a bit more of a nod. To me, when I was reading the short story, originally, I was kind of like, “This is a cool little story about a dragon and stuff.” And I – dragon hunt.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: And that it wasn't ringing any sort of fairy tale bells for me. It would have been interesting to have shown that to a much more of a wider audience that those connotations, but there we are.

ALYSSA: And, again, if you, as listeners want to go back and listen to those episodes, Anita and Karolina did a really wonderful job of telling the story of Wawel Dragon. And I think you can visit a statue of it and I think a castle dedicated to it in Krakow, I believe. This conversation lends itself to the next point. Like, we did lose some of the fairytale aspects of the short stories between the books and the adaptation. Obviously, it happens. Renfri’s Snow White storyline, they did actually shoot it for Episode 1, but, ultimately, ended up scrapping it because it ended up kind of slowing down the narrative. Like, watching that episode, totally makes sense. I mean it's very fast paced and it gets straight to the heart of a lot of the content and of the main issue at hand. But what I do really miss though about the short stories that I think is kind of lost on the Netflix episodes is the removal of a lot of the moral ethical questions that, in my opinion, really made the books appealing for me. That's something that I wish we had more of here. A lot of what Borch says, as we go through these early tavern scenes as well as toward the end of the episode, in the books, he talks a lot about chaos and order. Who are agents of chaos? Who are agents of order? And allowing us, as a reader, to, like, really, I guess, sit in the moral gray – in this gray area of what it means to fight for a certain side, what it means to have certain moralities, certain ethics when it comes to, let's say, fighting a dragon. That is something that I very much miss from the books that I would really love to see more of in later episodes. Like, I think that was just crafted so well in the books and I would really love to see it translated in future seasons of the show.

ROB: Yeah, I, I definitely think that was sort of lost in adaptation translation, which is, is definitely a bit of a shame because they are very, very poignant in the books. And, you know, you find yourself reading this but also thinking about it yourself. You know, it really does make you question what you're reading, which I think is one of the – one of the fantastic things about The Witcher series as a whole. You know, they're not just fantasy stories. There's a lot of depth and richness to them philosophically and, you know, about certain issues and sort of social justice and all of it. You get bits of it in the first episode with “The Lesser Evil” and all that and some of it in the episode about “A Question of Price.”

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: But it's – it’s certainly not to the same depth and degree that you read. But, again, kind of understandable because you, you want to get to the bare bones of what the story is. And you've got elements of it. But, yeah, so, it’s not as looked at as I think it possibly could be, but, again, how you would do that and still make, like, a really cohesive episode that is engaging and entertaining beyond me. I know my job. Just give me the script and I'll do what you need me to. But, but, yeah, it’s—

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: It's – it’s a bit of a shame. It's a bit of a shame, I agree.

ALYSSA: Mhmm. Yeah, like, the story is completely coherent without it. I'll definitely say that. A lot of the Netflix episodes are, as you said, like, kind of standalone in terms of their content, particularly with Geralt’s storyline. I think it would have been a lot more meaningful for his character to see him really grapple with these things a lot more. You know, he spends the entirety of Bounds of Reason feeling relatively useless and misunderstood --

ROB: Hmm.

ALYSSA: —by this entire company of people. I think the only people that don't really give him a hard time are the dwarves, but Dorregaray gives him a hard time. Yennefer, obviously, gives him a hard time. Eyck doesn't like him. Jaskier’s kind of along for the ride. Particularly, in this one scene where – when they're going across a bridge in the Netflix episode, we get like an equivalent scene where they're kind of crossing a very narrow strait and then there's a landslide. He gets so dejected after talking to so many people, who just – essentially who just shit on his whole life and his career. By the end of those conversations, he's like, “I'm a nothing person. I'm a golem.” And it's – it's very sad to see that.

ROB: I think as well, like, “Bounds of Reason” appears to be a slightly different look at how people view the witcher profession.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: You know, a lot of people view him with disdain and he's a freak and a mutant and this, that, and the other. But there's a whole other side of it where there are people that are not mutants, they're not witches, but they are doing monster hunting. They are doing witcher’s work, but in a very, very different way and kind of respected and treated in a very different way. And, like, almost undercutting him in a lot of ways. Like, he says about Eyck doing it all for free. I think, even with the people that hate him, he can see his value because it's like, “Yeah, you might shit on me, or hate me, or spit at me when I walked down the street, but you still need me and you're aware of that.”

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: But, now, there's this almost new breed of people that are coming along thinking themselves as monster hunters like the Reavers or whoever it is.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: And, you know, it's what – what you surmise. People already hate me and I've got people doing my job who aren't hated because they're just people.

ALYSSA: Mhmm

ROB: What you surmise? Yeah, in general, Bounds of Reason was a very, very interesting look at that from a slightly different side of the Witcher profession and how Geralt sort of use himself after talking to all these people. And we really don't get that from the adaptation at all, I don't think.

ALYSSA: Yeah, I mean I definitely understand the changes that were made. There is a much stronger focus on the action and a stronger incentive to, I think, get to the action based parts of an episode, you know, not just in this episode but every episode of the series. In Game of Thrones, one of the things that was very much heralded in the early seasons was how they broke up the storylines and how they kind of set their characters up in like the first three to five seasons and using quiet moments of dialogue and contrasts with other characters in order to build their moralities. And I think, because of, like, the rush to action fantasy here on the Witcher, like, it's so baked into the worlds. You can't avoid it. And it's baked into the plot as well. But I think I would have liked to see a lot more of those kind of quiet moments and a lot more of those dialogues about, like, what is right, how do we handle mortality because I think it could have been a very beautiful cross between, you know, Game of Thrones, for example, or Lord of the Rings, or any fantasy and a show such as, like, The Good Place.

ROB: Definitely, there's a lot there with the Witcher. You know, we’re all fans – we’re all fans of the books here. Like, otherwise, I don't think we'd be listening really to this podcast. But, like, as sort of, like, a pilot series, they had to sort of get to the point to make sure people, you know, want to engage and interested in, like, what they're watching. The Witcher, as a whole, you know, even, I think, Game of Thrones as well, to begin with, it was quite a niche thing. Not many people knew about it, you know?

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: And this is one of those big tests of, are people going to like this, people – are we going to be able to keep doing this because I hope we can.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: I think, in general, they did a fantastic job of the series as a whole. And I hope now that they've seen much success onto Season 2, onto Season 3, or whatever it is. And I think they got to where they wanted to at the end of the series as a whole sort of, you know, just going forward.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: So, I hope that we can sort of maybe change gears a little bit, slow down a little bit, and maybe explore those greater themes and theories that are in the stories or in the books.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: Maybe now we're able to go now at a pace that fits that. So, hopefully, you know, we'll be able to do that now.

ALYSSA: Yeah. And, kind of chugging along with comparisons to the books, we talked briefly about Eyck’s disposition and how he's seen as a character by, you know, the writing team in the context of Netflix series. He has a very, very different plot in the Netflix show. In the books, he's kind of initial part of this hunt. We do know that he's against, like, all magic, all nonhumans for the most part. And, so, when we get to that landslide scene, he's ultimately the one that saves Geralt and Yennefer from certain death with a magical elven made rope. You know, for all of the nonsense that he spouts, despite her magic, Yennefer is a woman and, like, he can't let her fall or something. And then Geralt gets very salty because he's like, “Okay. So, if I wasn't strapped to Yennefer, would you not have saved me then?” And then, by the time we get to the fight scene to the dragon, the dragon fight is very different. And we could talk about this in detail as well. But Eyck’s role in it, specifically, is that the dragon Villentretenmerth asks for a fighter essentially to represent King Niedamir. Eyck decides that it's him. He rides out against Villentretenmerth and is knocked off his horse immediately.

ROB: “Just a flesh wound.”

ALYSSA: Yeah. And that's kind of the end of him for now. But, obviously, in the Netflix show, he kicks the bucket pretty early on.

ROB: This was, legit, my biggest disappointment because I, I did quite like how they portrayed him. It was just funny. I mean it was quite funny how he was killed off, but I just would have given anything to see this portrayal of Eyck run headlong into that dragon and just get knocked the F out straight away.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: That would have just been amazing.

ALYSSA: So, this is what I was kind of saying earlier, at least in my opinion, that, you know, obviously, the show has a little bit of, like, corniness and, like, Xena Warrior Princess vibes to it. But the characters themselves take themselves very seriously in the Netflix show versus, in the books, it's just absolutely absurd. And, again, the characters do take themselves seriously, but the hilarity does come from the situation that they're now in. They're being asked by a telepathic dragon to find someone to represent their colors and to fight the dragon in a one-on-one battle. And they need a herald. Like, all of them are blown away by this even in the context of the book. Like, they're just like, “What is – what is happening?” And I think that absurdity and that incredulousness, like, definitely lends itself to a very funny and fun experience as a reader. You know, very different tone in the Netflix series. The whole thing is very serious. It's very somber. The dragon had just died. And, yeah – and then they all go to fight. So, when we go back to Eyck, I guess, this is all speculation between you and I from here on out. But what do you think the purpose was in killing off his character so early in the Netflix series rather than, you know, having a direct adaptation of the book plot?

ROB: To literally bring Geralt and Yennefer together because, otherwise, it wouldn’t have happened in the same degree that we needed it to as I think viewers or followers of their relationship. That conversation – that dialogue they have about why she wants to hunt the dragon and, and him blurting out about the child of surprise, so, that wouldn't have happened because Eyck would have been so attentive and, like, he is. You know, he was like, “Will you join me in my tent, my lady?” You know, all of this. Had it not happened when it did, I don't think we would have really got the, the scenes that we did with Yennefer and Geralt or, at least, to the intensity that we did, which I think was very necessary to how the rest of the episode ends up playing out—

ALYSSA: Right.

ROB: —with the dragon because it sort of happens about halfway through the episode, doesn't it? So, the, the sort of other half – the second half of the episode wouldn't have – wouldn’t have jelled, wouldn’t have worked for I think what they were wanting to do really with Geralt and Yennefer.

ALYSSA: Yeah. And I think, like, a lot of that does stem, as we've talked about, from the fact that they paired Jennifer and Eyck together. Eyck, ultimately, as a character, would have kept Yennefer away from Geralt because that's what she would have used him for. I mean I would imagine, like, it also does lighten the CGI load to not have, like, one-on-one battle with the dragon. So, the final battle is, is, as I said, a lot different in the books than the show. The show does end up being a little more straightforward. Yennefer arrives to the cave after cutting off the dwarves. Her and Geralt find Téa and Véa and the dragon, Villentretenmerth. The Reavers arrive and then everyone kills the Reavers. Really straightforward. It's very much these are the good guys. These are the faceless bad guys. And then we just have, like, a five-minute fight sequence.

ROB: Also, was it just me or did, like, it seem like there were far more Reavers than there was originally when that fight scene came along?

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: I thought that was, like, about 10 of them at best. And then they're just coming out of all the holes in the cavern. There's, like, 50 of them. It was like, “We were here the whole time. Like, what?”

ALYSSA: Yeah, it was super, super confusing. And the only one that was named was Boholt in the Netflix show. And we see him very briefly in the tavern scene when they mentioned the Reavers, but it only looks like there's, like, two more in the tavern. And then, yeah, as you get to the actual fight scene, there's like a dozen of them. And I'm just like, “Wait. Where—

ROB: Like, somehow, multiplied in number.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: Where did you all come from?

ALYSSA: Just jumping out of plot holes and—

ROB: Literally. Yeah. We were here the whole time. Waah.

ALYSSA: Very straightforward in terms of the Netflix series. Good guys, bad guys. Good guys beat the bad guys. And then all's well that ends well, right? In the books, it's a little more complicated. The people who discovered the dragon are Geralt, Yennefer, Jaskier or Dandelion, in the case of the English books. And then we also have the dwarves, which are led by Yarpen Zigrin, Eyck, Dorregaray, and the Reavers. So, a pretty big company, as I said, but the company is not allowed to go through this third road that the dragon is protecting. He then challenges the company to a duel. They're trying to figure out, “Okay. Screw the terms of this fight. Let's just all attack this dragon and he won't know what's coming.” And then Eyck stops everybody. And the monologue he does before that's – if you listen to Peter Kenny's audiobook, is incredible. Again, it speaks to his, like, religious zeal. He's very – he has a lot of just, like, pure belief in himself. He is all for Eyck.

ROB: Oh, feelings. He’s got a lot of feelings.

ALYSSA: Yeah. And it's really funny to like hearing the pros. Like, his eyes are feverish with excitement. He's trembling and, and then it’s just, like, everything goes downhill from there.

ROB: I mean we, we definitely get a sense of that with the fight with Hirrika.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: You know, it’s like a man possessed.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: You know, shouts, “For kingdom and glory!” you know, and it's – it's insane. You know, we definitely get elements of that.

ALYSSA: Yeah, Eyck gets knocked off of this horse. All three of the Reavers go to battle this dragon. They get knocked over. And it's not really clear if they've died or not. Apparently, some of them are stirring. There's only three. Apparently, the dwarves also tried to take it on. And then, as soon as the Reavers get completely demolished, they started scrambling up like a mountainside or something. And the Barefield’s Constabulary that we talked about in the beginning, led by a Sheepbagger, now arrives. And it does look like this dragon is going to lose just against the sheer numbers of the barefield forces. Téa and Véa come over the mountain side. And this is when the company starts to really put together the pieces that Villentretenmerth is Borch. And that's kind of how it ends. So, we get like multiple acts throughout the course of this fight. We get like the fight with Eyck. We get the fight between the Reavers and the dwarves and Villentretenmerth. And then we get this, like, final battle with the Barefield’s Constabulary against Villentretenmerth.

ROB: Obviously, it’s very, very different, but, but still, with the context of the adaptation, it makes sense because you got – I think that's it. You've got to – you got to look at it as a whole of what they were trying to do with Geralt and Yennefer's relationship and how, like I said, you know, Yennefer gets there and her intentions completely go out the window. But the Reavers are still there and still a very viable threat. It’s a bit of a shame the dwarfs didn't get any action, especially when they came along and be, like, “You know, you missed all the fun.” Boholt went out to Yarpen there. You know, there's – there's a lot of differences here. But—

ALYSSA: Yeah, I think, as you said, like, it does make sense. Like, that fight scene could have been an entire episode in and of itself --

ROB: Absolutely. 

ALYSSA: —if it was, you know, directly true to the books. It’s just kind of funny trying to – because there's really no comparison to be made because it’s – they're just so wildly different at this point. But, as I said, if you do want to learn more, read Bounds of Reason or listen to the Peter Kenny version or podcast Episodes 8 and 9.

ROB: Yeah, I mean I wasn't overly – I wasn't overly disappointed by the episode and how it turned out to be honest --

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: —in comparison to the books. Most probably followed the beats that were necessary.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: But it’s also, like, the, the shots that that episode, I think, especially took – the sort of cinematography that was in the episode with a wide landscape shot, this is sort of as close to an adventure like The Hobbit as I think The Witcher gets.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: This was as close to sort of adventure as going on an epic quest to hunt down a dragon. And it was quite nice.

ALYSSA: Yeah. And both Lauren and Matt D'Ambrosio talk about this in the quarantine watch party as well. Lauren said all of these shots of the travelers across big vistas. They were so important to director Charlotte Brandstrom as part of the epic adventure and Lauren says she was so right. Big shout out to the Canary Islands too, gorgeous scenery. Matt D'Ambrosio followed that up by saying, “I distinctly remember watching dailies of this episode from the Canary Islands and constantly being in shock that all the scenery in the backgrounds on the dragon hunt were real.” As he said, they definitely translate beautifully to screen. And it does feel like that big grand epic, “I'm going on an adventure,” for an audience.

ROB: Yeah. And I, I think it does that beautifully. It does that really perfectly for what they were trying to show in this episode.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: You know, you were saying, in, in the book, is, you know, they see a dragon in a valley. But, obviously, we meet Villentretenmerth and Téa and Véa in a cave. The change in location there, specifically, was certainly necessary for the size of the party as it were that they had in this episode because they've taken out a lot of, you know, the constabulary, like we said, and some of the other characters. Keeping it tight knit and in a sort of smaller, slightly more intimate space. It made sense for the amount of people that were, in the end, involved in this adaptation. I think it being set in a cave in this small location – this intimate location makes Yennefer’s sort of realization more so. This dragon has gone off to try and hide away in some way that she thinks is safe in this cave to look after this, this baby – this egg.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: And the fact that, you know, Yennefer was gonna possibly destroy that just so she could have what the, the dragon was trying to have, you know. The location change was very necessary just in those terms of what I've just said, you know, about, about Yennefer and the dragon and everything, but also just because the amount of players that we have as it were in this scene in this quest. So, it being in a massive, wide open space, like it is in the books --

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: —I don’t think would have translated or it would look weird. It would look a bit awkward because it would have just been like Geralt and Yennefer who end up finding Villentretenmerth, which would have been them, massive field, and a dragon.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: The lack of intimacy in that – in watching that would have felt awkward and weird.

ALYSSA: Yeah, the cave also serves a nice purpose of setting scale.

ROB: Mhmm.

ALYSSA: If it was just a valley, there's no actual sense of scale of, like, let's say, how big Villentretrenmerth is or the other dragon as well, which they don't name in the show. You know, even though we don't get like these really different battles in terms of, as I said, Eyck, the Reavers, and dwarves, and the Barefield’s Constabulary, because we get fight sequences inside the cave, outside of the cave, that one lone Reaver, who tries to take on the dragon one on one, there is kind of a variety to the kinds of fights that we're seeing and the kind of combat in action. The other thing is that it's also a different location entirely from the vistas that we saw. Those broad shots were done on the Canary Islands. But, according to Lauren, in the quarantine watch party, that cave scene was specifically done in Budapest. So, super different. So, the last, like, very specific plot change that happens between the show and the books is a runoff from both the last wish from The Last Wish as well as Bottled Appetites, the previous episode. You know, after the battle happens, after everything has settled, we get a scene in the Netflix series where Borch is speaking to Geralt and Yennefer and just kind of talking with them. In the show, Borch kind of lets on that Geralt had wished that he wouldn't lose Yennefer in the previous episode and then Borch tells them, “I'm going to save you both a lot of hurt with a little pain now. The sorceress will never regain her womb. And, though you didn't want to lose her Geralt, you will.” So, there's a couple little changes that happen between the books and the show. Yennefer knew what Geralt’s wish was. She actually heard it in The Last Wish. We don't know what the wish was, but we do know that she found it very moving, which is why they, ultimately, you know, consummate their relationship on the floor of Beau Berrant’s home. Conversely, in the show, Yennefer apparently didn't hear Geralt’s wish. So, that kind of comes to bite them both in the butt here in this conversation with Borch. She then becomes very skeptical of their relationship, like, believing that the djinn is the only reason that they can’t escape each other, in her words. And then we do get the payoff from the previous episode Bottled Appetites where she then finds out what his wish was. It feels like a very small decision in terms of writing, but, like—

ROB: Yeah.

ALYSSA: —I think it has a huge ramification on how the characters interact with each other.

ROB: Yeah, it does. You're right. It seems like a really small decision to, like, change that, but it affects a lot. It's probably for the best that they've – they've made that decision just in terms of how we're consuming the TV series. You know, we're watching it sort of chronologically and we’re aware of some sort of chronology that's going on. Whereas, when you're reading the books, obviously, there's a chronology and you're aware that, you know, something's happened in the past or whatever. But you're able to go a bit more with the flow of things—

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: —and just make assumptions between Geralt and Yennefer, in the books, a bit more casually, I think, than you are when you're seeing it sort of thrown in your face like you are in the Netflix show.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: Because, for all intents and purposes, had they not made that change and had that discussion at the end with Borch not what happened, who's to say that Geralt and Yennefer wouldn't have just carried on their merry way? But then, the next time we see both of these characters and they're not together, it would have been confusing—

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: —had that revelation not happen and Yennefer storm off and, you know, the characters be left where they are. If she would have been like, “Hmm. Yeah. You might be right. You might be wrong, but, you know, dude made a wish to a djinn or whatever and I heard it. And I'm still into him.” So, you know, it would—

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: It would have been weird, I think, had – you know, because, for all intents and purposes, then you would have expected to see, spoilers, Geralt of the Battle of Sodden.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: But you don't. So, spoiler.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: You know, it's – I think it's, the way we watch the Netflix show, there needs to be sort of more, I think, obvious chronology than there perhaps is in the books when you're reading them.

ALYSSA: The point that you brought up about continuity, like, there's inherently a continuous thread in creating a series, like, you know that you have a certain amount of episodes and that these characters and the story needs to continue. Obviously, Andrzej Sapkowski didn't know that when he was writing these short stories. And, actually, if I remember correctly, this story, The Bounds of Reason, I believe he wrote this before he actually wrote The Last Wish, according to something that Anita and Karolina translated for me in the last episode. So, you know, by the time he wrote The Last Wish, it made sense to, obviously, self contain what the wish was. There was no real reason to have it continue after that episode. So, I do think that is, like, a very fair point that, like, given the medium, given the presumption of continuity within television adaptation, sure, it makes sense to, like, carry over things from previous episodes because you should. Like, that's – that's how character development happens.

ROB: Yeah.

ALYSSA: But I will actually disagree. I do think it changes their dynamic in a negative way to have her now be skeptical of the entire relationship. So, I'm very curious to see how this is gonna play out and what the consequences are for taking the stance in the – in the Netflix series because, if she's skeptical of the relationship and we already know that she's a person that fears abandonment, I guess, what is there to, like, keep her to Geralt now if she has that skepticism.

ROB: I think it will serve to show Yennefer's development in a very different way. And we'll get to really deep dive into this relationship and what does this relationship mean.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: And her to try and really figure out, well, what's real and what's the djinn. And her to, I think, explore sides of herself and Geralt as well that she's never thought about or touched upon before.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: They – I think there's a lot of things that you could possibly link to Borch here, where he's like, “I've got very few firsts left,” but Yennefer, yeah, she’s lived a long life, but it seems like she's still got quite a few first to go. You know, love, as an emotion, seems one of them, you know.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: And I think it might serve to be just a bit more of a development tool for her that we get to watch unfold.

ALYSSA: Mhmm. Yeah. And, hopefully, we'll continue to see a payoff for this decision. Like, as you said, in not only her relationship with herself but also her relationship with Geralt and Gennefer – with Geralt as well.

ROB: Using a couple name there, Gennefer.

ALYSSA: That was a big mishap. Messing up a couple name.

ROB: Oh, I went to the doctor. I’ve got Gennefer.

ALYSSA: Just a – just a little – a little bit that I have to scratch off. You know, the doctor gave me prescription.

ROB: Just a little bit of Gennefer. There’s a cream for that.

ALYSSA: Hopefully, you know, they do revisit this and it's like, you know, not forgotten about—

ROB: Mhmm.

ALYSSA: —in future seasons.

ROB: And perhaps as like a side note or a continuation of this, like, perhaps this is something that we might visit if we see A Shard of Ice adaptation, screen—

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: —which I would love to see. 

ALYSSA: Yeah, that will put her in a very complex position. “A Shard of Ice”, we covered with Charlotte from Vengerberg Glamarye in Episode 10. It's a story of – it's the only story we actually meet Istredd in. 

ROB: Hmm.

ALYSSA: So, if we were to see a show adaptation with our understanding of Yennefer's relationship with Istredd, which is so much deeper here in the Netflix show—

ROB: Hmm.

ALYSSA: —than it was – ever could have been in the books considering the length, if this knowledge of this wish just subverts Yennefer's relationship with Geralt, what does that mean for, for an adaptation of A Shard of Ice? A really interesting question to pose. If she knows that Istredd has been with her since the beginning, since before her transformation versus Geralt who she assumed she's only linked to because of this djinn, I assume the dynamics of that story would play out very, very differently.

ROB: If, if you were to add these elements, you know, her doubting her and Geralt, then—

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: —I think that will make the adaptation, the episode, even more interesting, but, again, we’re – we’re just totally speculating at this point.

ALYSSA: We do know the actor that plays Istredd, Royce, will be returning for Season 2. We just, obviously, have no idea in what capacity. So, maybe. Maybe. Yeah. So, that's, you know, very broadly, a lot of the changes that were made in the adaptation between the “Bounds of Reason” short story and the Netflix series. You know, minor changes in how we see characters, Eyck, obviously, being the biggest one. And then appropriate changes in the plot to account for those changes in character. You know, we also get, like, small adaptations in Ciri’s original storyline. We do get, you know, two small notes here based on the books. The first is how the Netflix series treats dopplers versus how books treats dopplers. And we see them in The Eternal Flame, which we cover in Episode 11 with Chris and Adi. And the other thing, which we talked about briefly in the first half, is the relationship between Cahir and Fringilla. What we know about dopplers, from the books, is that they're, you know, shapeshifters. They're meant to be in the wilds. Their natural form is kind of this amorphous mixture of, like, mud and flowers as they're described. And they're very nice. Like, they have an innate goodness to their character. All of this is turned upside down in the Netflix show. And this ends up coming up in the original storyline between Ciri and Nilfgaard. The Doppler in the Netflix series is specifically sought out by Cahir because he's, like, “not one of the good ones.”

ROB: But, yeah, I think it's very interesting, especially in the book where they are creatures that are, you know, mean well and they're happy, friendly, you know, characters. But we've now established in the Netflix show that dopplers are evil.

ALYSSA: Or have the potential to be. Yeah.

ROB: It was, obviously, used as sort of a plot device as a plot hook to involve in, in Ciri’s sort of personal journey here. And I, I don't dislike it at all. I think it’s very interesting, you know. In the same way they’re in the very first episode, where he brings back the Kikimora, [Inaudible 1:15:24] is saying that, you know, they were leaving that because it was like pest control or whatever, you know. So, not all monsters are evil in the same way that not all humans are good. You know, we've – I think it's one of those that looks at and tests one of the key components of The Witcher world of who are the real monsters in this world.

ALYSSA: And I guess the last thing that we really have is the relationship between Cahir and Fringilla. Again, no spoilers, but they just don't have a relationship in the books despite both being from Nilfgaard. But we do see here, in the Netflix series, she seems to act as an advisor for him, but I'm very curious to see how this is all gonna play out.

ROB: Yeah, it's definitely gonna be very, very interesting to see what they're gonna do with this relationship, what they're planning to do with this relationship. From what we've seen, they’re, obviously, you know, together quite a lot. They – there's a lot of teamwork going on between them. I wonder if we're going to see anything from the past between them—

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: —in whatever context that that arises in. Even though it's, like you said, there's no – they have no relationship in the books, but I'm looking forward to seeing where they're gonna go with it, certainly, and how it's gonna affect the grand narrative, to be honest.

ALYSSA: I guess we'll see.

ROB: Yeah, absolutely.

ALYSSA: Definitely a lot of potential. It makes it, I think, a little exciting as a book reader—

ROB: Hmm.

ALYSSA: —to just have something new. I guess, something that's going to be unexpected.

ROB: Yeah, absolutely. I mean don't get me wrong. I, I love – I love a good adaptation of the book, you know, but it's always nice to see something that still surprises you because we were kind of just – we’re just sort of thrust into it. You know, Nilfgaard, evil, bad, uh, doing a thing, but we're not quite sure why. But they're really, really passionate about it. Hopefully, now, we're gonna be able to see why. I think one thing that Lauren Hissrich said – I'm not sure where she said it. But she said that they, they removed a sort of dormitory scene of some sort—

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: —with, I think, Fringilla, Yennefer, probably Sabrina as well, when they were in Aretuza. They removed it sadly because it would have absolutely made – I think it would have been a stark difference to what we've seen. And that would have point into question more of, like, what made you have this change. So, hopefully, that's something we get to explore in, you know, Season 2 and further.

ALYSSA: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I guess, looking at this episode as a whole, do you have any, like, kind of closing thoughts on Rare Species?

ROB: I really enjoyed the episode. Like I said, it felt like a real adventure watching it, you know. And the changes they made, you know, some quite drastic. I wasn't personally mad about it. I felt it fit the narrative of, of what they were trying to achieve with the episode and overall with the series as a whole. But, yeah, like, I, I think it was a really good episode. It certainly drops a lot of questions. Like we said, you know, Geralt goes a separate ways to Jaskier and Yennefer. And it’s sort of left on a really dark note. Ciri is left on her own.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROB: As an episode, it really makes you want to find out more and keep watching and what's going to happen next.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROB: It opened up a lot of intrigue to want to keep watching and want to keep engaging with this series, you know, in series two. So, yeah, I think, overall, I really enjoyed it. Probably one of my favorite episodes of the – of the series. And I'm glad I got to talk about it on Breakfast in Beauclair.

ALYSSA: I was super glad to have you. Yeah. So, that is it for our show today. Rob, thank you so much for joining us for this episode and thank you to our hanza for listening. So, where can people find you? And is there anything that our community can help you with or anything that you'd like to share with them?

ROB: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This has been amazing. So, thank you. Yeah, I am – I'm Rob. I am an actor. So, if you want to sort of follow my acting exploits or anything I might be doing in the future or projects or anything like that, then you can follow me on most social medias @RobDriscollAC. And, hey, you know, if you want to put me in anything, then, you know, just hit me up there and let me know. I can send you my CV. And, as for my sort of gaming and live stream exploits, I go under the handle of TheUndeadGamr, ‘gamer’ without the E. You can find me on twitch.tv/theUndeadGamr and, you know, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook @TheUndeadGamr as well. So, if you want to come along and hang out there and talk about Witcher, talk about games or whatever it is, then, yeah, hit me up. I'd love to have you. And, also, if you want to listen to a podcast about video games and the industry and stuff and things, then you can find my podcast Undead Gaming cast on various podcasting platforms. It would be awesome to have you there to listen or even watch the live show, which we do as well. So, yeah, I think that’s it. I don't have anything to sell apart from entertainment really. So— 

ALYSSA: Yeah, that's all you got. That's all you got.

ROB: That’s all – that’s all I got.

ALYSSA: It’s quite a lot. 

ROB: That’s all I got.

ALYSSA: Next episode, join us as we discuss the penultimate episode of The Witcher Season 1 in our coverage of Episode 7, “Before a Fall”.

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Outro & Credits

[Breakfast in Beauclair theme music by MojoFilter Media]

ALYSSA: Thanks for joining us at the breakfast table! For show notes, transcripts of each episode, and a complete list of our social platforms and listening services, head over to breakfastinbeauclair.com.

Breakfast in Beauclair is created by Alyssa from GoodMorhen. It’s hosted by Alyssa with the “Tidings from Toussaint” News Segment by Lars from WitcherFlix. The show is edited by Alyssa with the Breakfast in Beauclair theme by MojoFilter Media and the “Tidings from Toussaint” theme by Bettina Campomanes.

Breakfast in Beauclair is produced by Alyssa in New York City with Luis of Kovir, The Owner of The Churlish Porpoise, Arix the Godling, Katie (The Redhead of Toussaint), Jacob B., Julie, Sylvia of Skellige, Jamison, Ayvo of Gulet, Bee Haven of the Edge of the World, Jacob Meeks, Charlotte from Vengerberg Glamarye, RedKite, The Original Roach, AerialKitty, TheOneTrueChef, Dustin, Chris K. of Kovir, and Libby, The Castel Ravello Sommelier, and Clare Odell.

Special thanks to Rob, TheUndeadGamr, for joining us for this episode and our international hanza for their support.

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Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo
Editor: Krizia Casil

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