Ep. 24 — "Bottled Appetites" from Netflix's The Witcher (Part 2)

Charli from Austria and Jess S. from the US return with Alyssa from GoodMorhen for the second half of our discussion of “Bottled Appetites”, the fifth episode in season one of Netflix’s The Witcher. Very important bits include: a breakdown of Ciri’s storyline, the mechanics of bringing a doppler to life, making a soundtrack, a critical look at the translation of Geralt’s relationships from book to screen, Jabba The Doppler slaps, and magic Roaches.

This episode is available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, and Stitcher.

Transcript

Cold Open

ALYSSA: In the final scenes of the show – oh, wait. Let me – let me make, like, a big ol’ noise so I know that, like, this is where I'm putting a big cut. So, I'm sorry for this. Boooooop.

JESS: What were you even checking with that?

ALYSSA: Oh, my computer's outside.

CHARLI: Ah.

JESS: It’s like, “Do, like, animals start coming in when, when you make that noise?”

Introduction

[Breakfast in Beauclair theme music by MojoFilter Media]

ALYSSA: Welcome to Breakfast in Beauclair, a global Witcher Podcast. My name is Alyssa from GoodMorhen, and I’ll be your host as you, I, and our international hanza accompany Geralt of Rivia and his destiny, Cirilla of Cintra, across The Continent.

[Welcome]

Welcome to the 24th episode of Breakfast in Beauclair, and coincidentally, it’s launching on the 24th! I don’t think that this is ever going to happen ever again, so this is, I guess, the podcast’s golden episode, I guess you could call it. Episode 24 on the 24th. Um… yeah, so that’s my exciting tidbit for the day.

I feel a lot more relaxed now that I have this wonderful new setup, um, courtesy of our amazing patrons over at Patreon. If you’ve been following me on social media, you know that I got a boom arm and this really cool shockmount, so I feel like I can actually stand during my introductions instead of huddling in the blanket fort. Yeah, so. Off the cuff intro for today and hopefully for coming episodes as well as I get a lot more comfortable in front of a mic.

And as October draws near, so does our quarterly community donation. So if you have any suggestions for an organization that you’d like to be considered for next month’s donation, let me know at greetings@breakfastinbeauclair.com or leave a comment over on Patreon.

[Patron Announcements]

This week we have a new member of our community to welcome to the company! Welcome Libby, The Castel Ravello Sommelier, who joins our Producer-level patrons: Luis of Kovir, The Owner of The Churlish Porpoise, Arix the Godling, Katie (The Redhead of Toussaint), Jacob B., Julie, Sylvia of Skellige, Jamison, Ayvo of Gulet, Bee Haven of the Edge of the World, Jacob Meeks, Sebastian von Novigrad, Charlotte from Vengerberg Glamarye, RedKite, The Original Roach, AerialKitty, TheOneTrueChef, Dustin, and Chris K. of Kovir.

I want to thank our Producers and all of our patrons for making continual improvements to the show possible. Thanks to your support, we can upgrade the equipment, make the podcast accessible through transcription services, and contribute to causes and organizations that echo the values of our community.

If you’d like to explore becoming a patron of the show, head over to patreon.com/breakfastinbeauclair.

[Bonus Content Update]

And, also, just an update on bonus content: when we did this second recording over another weekend, we actually recorded additional content for the first episode that never ended up making it in. So for bonus content this week, the rerecorded conversation about the end of Geralt and Yennefer’s storyline after tackling the djinn will be up on Patreon for free for anybody to access, so feel free to go check that out starting the Saturday after this episode airs. And then all the additional bonus content for this episode will still be exclusive to patrons as a bonus.

[Episode Details]

As for this episode, Charli from Austria and Jess S. from the US returning for the second half of Episode 105 “Bottled Appetites” from Netflix’s The Witcher. Join us as we breakdown Ciri’s storyline, the mechanics of bringing a doppler to life, making a soundtrack, a critical look at the translation of Geralt’s relationships from book to screen, Jabba The Doppler slaps, and magic Roaches.

In our mid-episode news segment, “Tidings from Toussaint,” Lars from Witcherflix shares production updates for Season 2 of the main Netflix show and the spin-off, “Blood Origin”.

Without further ado, let’s get to the discussion for The Witcher Episode 105, “Bottled Appetites” (Part 2).

Discussion

[Breakfast in Beauclair stinger by MojoFilter Media]

ALYSSA: Welcome to Breakfast in Beauclair. My name is Alyssa and joining me today are Charli from Austria and Jess from the US. Hi, guys.

CHARLI: Hi.

JESS: Hello.

ALYSSA: So, today, we're gonna be talking about Episode 105 from the Netflix series, Bottled Appetites. Both of you have been active members of our international hanza. I think I've met you both through Twitter actually. And I'd love to hear more about how you guys got into the Witcher universe and what you're doing now.

CHARLI: I'm Charli and I got into the Witcher five years ago when my boyfriend introduced me to the first game. He recommended it to me. It was one of his favorites. I had never really played video games before. So, that was pretty much the first game I played. And I've been hooked ever since on the Witcher and couldn't get enough. And I got all the books and I played all the games. And I'm currently playing them again. And, yeah, I'm just obsessed.

ALYSSA: What about you, Jess?

JESS: Similar. I started with the first game. I think I played it though, like, a year or so after it came out initially. So, that's, like, 10 years ago, maybe. And then I played all the games, and then found out there are books, and read all the books. Although, unlike Charlie, I'm afraid to start replaying them because I'm, like, a completionist. And I feel like it might take over my life. Although, none of us are really doing anything anymore. So, maybe now is the time.

ALYSSA: That's true. At the time of recording, we're about two weeks into Coronavirus lockdown. So, I think this episode is going to come out around August, maybe September. It's only March.

JESS: Yeah.

CHARLI: A long way to go.

ALYSSA: So, as we're kind of having this conversation, both of you are coming to this discussion with really interesting perspectives. Charli, you freelance as a music journalist outside of your day job and Jess is a assistant picture editor for television. So, would you guys be able to tell me a little bit about how your experiences in those areas have impacted and colored your viewing of the show?

CHARLI: Well, I listen to music a lot, obviously, not just because I write about it, but also because I just love it. It's a huge, huge part of my life. And I listen to soundtracks these days. That's probably 90 percent of the music I listen to these days. So, the Witcher soundtrack, to me, in particular, as we're talking about the Witcher, there's something about it. And I listened to it so much on the regular. And, without the soundtrack, the show wouldn't be what it is. I love to listen to it on standalone as it's now out, released on iTunes and Spotify and the like. And I think there's a vinyl and CD coming out very soon, which I'm very excited about.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

CHARLI: I like to just crank it up at home while I’m cooking or whatever. And then what I like about it is I find something new every time I listen to it. And that's what makes great music to me – part of what makes great music to me. There are so many elements to it and so many layers to discover.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

CHARLI: So, that's definitely one of the main reasons I like the show so much. It’s because I love its soundtrack.

ALYSSA: Yeah. One of the curious things about the soundtrack of The Witcher universe, in particular, is that not only does the score elevate the emotions that we're seeing in each scene, but also the music itself has a part in the actual narrative, which is really exciting—

CHARLI: Mhmm.

ALYSSA: —through characters like Jaskier, who's a bard and whose tales, and trials, and tribulations have an effect on the narrative of the show and its characters within the context of their own universe. So, I'm excited to dig into both of those layers of analysis.

JESS: Yeah, it also sets the tone really well.

CHARLI: Mhmm.

JESS: It doesn't sound like any other show, really.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

JESS: It's not just sort of Slavic with also fantasy elements. There's also like rock elements and electrical elements, which is kind of what the Witcher is. It's a little bit of a mash up of a lot of things.

CHARLI: Absolutely. Yeah. It’s what makes it so great.

ALYSSA: Yeah. And, Jess, like considering your role as a picture editor, could you tell us a little bit about your experience of watching the Netflix series and how that's kind of been informed by your work?

JESS: Well, I think, working in editing and post production, you watch a lot of things and tend to notice things that most people don't notice. But, actually, I saw the first episode at one of the screenings. You know, they had the big fan screenings where they showed episode one. And I remember, like, thinking about the pace of the episode and how they paced it in terms of how quickly it was moving. And I remember thinking I could tell, like, what was reshot and what wasn't reshot based on the palette moved, and how it was directed, and how it looked. I feel like I have enough experience to tell when something's well done, especially within whatever their budget is, but still being able to kind of notice things on screen, which can be kind of annoying when you just want to watch it and then you start noticing something. But I think the show, in general, did a really good job, especially with staying in their budget and finding ways around in order to maintain their budget. And they did a lot of stuff like the practical effects. For a show with a lot of fantasy and actually a lot of magic in it, they actually did a lot of stuff, like, onset. So, yeah, I see that's how it kind of colored it.

ALYSSA: In the other half of this episode, we get scenes in the present day with Ciri and Nilfgaard sprinkled throughout the episode. In their scenes, the Nilfgaardian knight hires a doppler to impersonate Mousesack. Queen Calanthe’s advisor and Ciri’s close companion. The doppler Mousesack attempts to lure Ciri and Dara from Brokilon. 

CHARLI: I really, really like that opening scene in the doppler’s creep cabinet. I thought it was very eerie. The music, of course, added a lot to this. And I thought the sound effects did as well, obviously. It was a great entrance to, to the episode. And, actually, when we saw the ravens in the first shot, I thought of Yennefer. I thought this would be Yennefer related for some reason, because she's with the birds in the books. I am wondering though. Was that, like, doppler memorabilia? Was that souvenirs from people he's killed already or he’s morphed into already? Or is this fuel from people before he transforms?

JESS: That's my only question. I feel like it's got to just be a collection, right? Because he can just turn himself into someone.

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: He doesn't need body parts to do it.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

JESS: Because we see it in, like, a little bit later. By the way, I think that was a kneecap that he's putting in the jar.

CHARLI: Mhmm.

JESS: I don't know. It was a little weird, but I assume they're just trying to set him up as being super creepy.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

JESS: And that's how they did it.

CHARLI: Like a collector.

JESS: Yeah. They also established the silver thing, which is cool.

ALYSSA: I would kind of agree, as an audience member, who has no familiarity with the book and the lore, the scene sets up two things. One, their new Nilfgaardian efforts to just try to do something a little bit more desperate in order to get Ciri. The second thing is that it's a new something. We can kind of get the handle that this person may or may not be human, even though they appear to be human. It's an interesting choice in the dialogue and in the writing to have this character, this doppler, refer to itself as we. We and our, it uses to refer to itself. And, at first, it's kind of unclear. Like, is this thing part of like a hive mind of some sort? Is it just how it refers to itself? And we don't really know too much about it throughout the episode.

JESS: I would say they did it because, considering we find out later what he looks like normally, that he’s very often spending his time in someone else's body. They established that he also has their thoughts. So, he's already has two minds in his head when he's changed into someone, which would lead to the plural referring to himself as more than one person.

ALYSSA: Mhmm. That's a good point.

JESS: It's also a way to, obviously, distinguish him when he is someone else as, “Well, that's the doppler because he's talking about himself in that weird way.” But I assume that it comes from he has his own thoughts and then he also knows what that person was thinking who's, like, body he's turned into.

CHARLI: Do you think that he keeps everyone's memories or part of everyone's memories he's ever morphed into? Otherwise, what's the point of keeping these souvenirs? You know, maybe, maybe he's keeping them to remember that there were others before or to keep track of his, like, evolution in morphing into other beings.

JESS: I feel like the collection is more do indicate that this guy will kill people. And he's creepy and weird. Like, I'm sure, when he's not Ciri anymore, he remembers the Ciri is, like, special. But he probably doesn't remember, like, every memory Ciri has ever had, you know. You'd go crazy if you had, like, every single person's life history stuck in your head after that point. But I would say my feeling is that the body collection is more as a visual way to tell the audience, aside from just having to hear say, “You're not nice and helpful like other dopplers.” It's, like, not only is he not nice and helpful, he will straight up kill people. And he has a weird thing about children. So, like, we're just gonna set this guy up to be absolutely the worst. And then we're going to hammer it home in the next episode so that they make look like a monster.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

JESS: So, I think that was all just sort of, like, set up for us that this guy is really terrible.

CHARLI: Yeah. Maybe.

ALYSSA: I think the lore of dopplers though is never clear between this episode and the episode that follows up. You know, we'll talk more about, like, what a doppler is and, like, the transformation of it in comparison to the books. But I think, in the show, it's not totally clear kind of the limitations, the boundaries, what it's really capable of. The questions that I would assume an audience might have would be like, “Is it just a shapeshifter without any kind of, you know, qualms or boundaries? Does it always need to look like somebody else? Is that initial form the very, very pretty one? Is that kind of a hodgepodge of different people's ears, and noses, and eyes? Or is it, like, this was one specific person that he mimicked?” It's not really important to the story, but—

JESS: I think that's why they put some of those lines in there. Like, where he's like, “We were hoping to keep this one for a while.”

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: Like, he went out and found this hot dude and he turned into him.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

JESS: And he probably stole his body parts after he killed him, but I think those are all valid questions, like, in that first scene. One other thing I think the scene did well was establish that Nilfgaard isn't just a straightforward kingdom country invader. They are willing to do just about anything. And they are willing to deal with just about anyone to achieve what they're setting out to achieve. They don't really have qualms about doing stuff that other people might not even think of doing. Finding this guy to go into the forest of Brokilon and stuff. So, I think it establishes a little bit of the desperation in Cahir specifically and in Nilfgaard and a little bit of, like, how they might be – aside from just an invading force, their morality is very gray.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

JESS: They're a little bit more dangerous.

CHARLI: Yeah.

ALYSSA: Because we got, in previous episodes, that they cut out, like, Calanthe’s flesh in order to divine that Ciri was in Brokilon in the first place. So, we know that they're okay with the occult and that they rely on this kind of religious fervor in order to justify their cause.

CHARLI: Yeah, forbidden magic, is it? They say in the show that it's forbidden magic. 

JESS: Yeah, that's really interesting too, because it's almost like it's forbidden because it's really dangerous. People could – are gonna possibly die from doing it. Not necessarily forbidden just because they don't want you to be doing it. It's like, no, this is really, really dangerous. But Nilfgaard is willing to take the risk.

CHARLI: And Cahir says to him that he has been looking for him for a while – for the doppler. So, yeah, they are desperate.

JESS: And for that doppler.

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: For that one who will do something that is immoral or whatever.

CHARLI: Which begs the question, like you said, it doesn't matter to the show, to the story at this point. But is it just this one doppler that's not helpful like the others? Or is there good dopplers and bad dopplers? It's left ambiguous. We don't know. Maybe we will find out in later seasons. I don't know. But, for now, we, we have no clue. And it doesn't matter. So—

ALYSSA: Mhmm. We get to see the doppler in action, you know, in the next few seasons and in the next episode. The doppler, at the request of the Nilfgaardian forces and Fringilla, who we've met in Yennefer's childhood, turns into Mousesack and then attacks and kills him. Therefore, kind of securing his place in the world right now as Mousesack and then planning some sort of extraction of Ciri from Brokilon.

JESS: I could be wrong, but I think this is the first time they introduced dimeritium—

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

CHARLI: Mhmm.

JESS: —which is important to the story later on. There's a weird part of the scene, though, where he tells him to run. I’m like, “Why are you making this old man, like, run 10 feet?” Just, just kill him. You know, turn yourself into him and just get it over with. And it's not like he could have enjoyed the chase either. He literally ran 10 feet.

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: That was kind of weird. But there's an interesting way they got around a much more expensive version of this face change through the editing. They cut around a few things as a way to avoid having to do like a super complicated effects work, because they had to show him turning into Mousesack. They have to show that the first time. That way, they don't have to do it in Episode 6. They don't have to show him turning into people anymore, because we've seen it here. So, they had to, like, put that in the show at least one time so you could actually physically see what it was like for the doppler to change.

CHARLI: I think Eamon Farren, is it? Who plays Cahir. I really like him because he's super intense. Like, there's something about his face that's really – I don't know.

JESS: And they, like, slick his hair back and stuff, too. So, he looks very like—

CHARLI: I mean he's not at all, obviously, the Cahir that we would imagine. I don't know.

JESS: He's also a lot more sympathetic in the book.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

CHARLI: Absolutely. But, yeah, you said you'll get into that in the next episode, right?

ALYSSA: Yeah.

CHARLI: But, anyway, I think for the Cahir he is, in the show that we see—

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

CHARLI: —I think he's doing a great job because he's very scary.

JESS: He does a good job of delivering lines that are really don't mean anything yet, but in a very meaningful way.

CHARLI: Yeah. Yeah.

JESS: Like, saying things like – the one that stuck in my head is in the last episode where he's like, “To get to the center of it all.” And you're like, what the – I even know where the story goes. And I don't really know what that means. But the way he delivers it—

CHARLI: I know.

JESS: —is, like, very clear and very, like, intense. And you, like, believe that this guy is, like—

ALYSSA: A bit of a nut. Yeah.

JESS: So, he does a good job.

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: I mean he and Fringilla have a lot of heavy lifting to do with, like, selling all of Nilfgaard basically just through two characters.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

CHARLI: Yeah.

ALYSSA: Yeah, that's true.

CHARLI: But, just one thought about the running away and the doppler chasing him for like two seconds, I think that was just in there to, obviously, make them look more sadistic, sadistic, sadistic. I don’t know.

JESS: But it was, like, the budget version. Like, he didn't, like, send them on a run and then they, like, hunted him down. He just ran and then the doppler was like, “Ooh.”

CHARLI: Yeah, but I didn't mean the doppler. I mean Cahir, because he's the one who says to him run. So, I don't know.

JESS: But also, like, I want to know. Did he and the doppler plan that ahead of time? Cahir was like, “Look, I'll let you chase him down and you just have to do this for me.”

CHARLI: Because then he's like, “I found his purpose.” He comes to them.

ALYSSA: Although I do wonder, like, is it necessary for doppler to kind of, like, see their victim move a little so he has some kind of sense of, like, how Mousesack kind of, like, moves?

CHARLI: Maybe.

ALYSSA: Like, a physical weight to him, too.

JESS: Yeah, that's a good theory. It would work better if there was at least one shot of the doppler, like, watching him first—

CHARLI: Hmm.

JESS: —which they didn't have, which maybe got edited out for time. You know, if you cut that out, you can't cut out the whole scene because he's in a different location and he's killing. And then there's the change and all that stuff. So maybe that's what happened. It’s, for time, stuff got cut down.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

JESS: That's a good theory.

CHARLI: Yeah.

ALYSSA: Because he had been vomiting from the dimeritium and was just, like, huddled on the ground.

JESS: It’s just like vomit number four on the show. That's something my dad noticed. He's like, “Why do people – why do they like showing people throwing up all the time?” I was like, “I don’t know.”

ALYSSA: Well, it just looks like also baby formula. Like, it's, like, oddly white.

CHARLI: Yeah.

ALYSSA: Which is, like, a  little weird. I mean last two seasons that we get from the present day from Ciri’s storyline are both in Brokilon. The dryads debate Ciri’s intent and purpose within their community. And Eithne, who’s the dryan queen, determined Ciri can stay in Brokilon. The last scene that we get doppler Mousesack enters Brokilon, is approached by the dryads, and the dryads bring him to the rest of the community. And Ciri and Mousesack, who's secretly the doppler, reunite.

JESS: Yeah, I like that the whole scene was in elder speech. That was kind of cool.

CHARLI: Yeah. And also that we didn't see Ciri was sitting next to them at first.

JESS: That was a good reveal. Yeah, that was cute.

CHARLI: That was – that was – that's pretty cool. I do have one issue, though. It’s that I wish we'd seen how the dryads actually live, because all they do all day is sit around on rocks and tree trunks.

JESS: Yeah.

CHARLI: But we don't ever – like, they're just there. They just exist there.

JESS: Like, what do they sleep on?

CHARLI: Yeah. What do they do, you know?

JESS: Yeah.

CHARLI: That kind of irked me. And then doppler Mousesack got to go into the forest without drinking the waters because they made such—

JESS: I was just gonna say that.

CHARLI: —a big thing out of it that everyone had to drink it, every single person. And then, you know, their intentions would be revealed and they would die if they had ill intentions. And then he just didn't have to drink it. And the only possible explanation I can think of is that the dryad general, because they made such a big deal out of her wanting Ciri gone that, she just neglected that and just let him through once he mentioned he was there for the girl – to get the girl.

JESS: Yeah. Like, take her and go. I don't care who you actually are. Just take her and get out of here.

CHARLI: Yeah, but, but that's so – it just doesn't make sense.

ALYSSA: Yeah, that was kind of the same issue that I had as well. I didn't think about that about the dryad general. It doesn't seem enough—

CHARLI: Mhmm.

ALYSSA: —to take away her morals and her values—

CHARLI: Yeah.

ALYSSA: —to just want Ciri gone so much that she completely neglects her disdain for humans.

CHARLI: Yeah.

ALYSSA: But, again, like, I think it's kind of the same thing with the dryads as with the dopplers. As an audience of the show, we don't really know a lot about them. They're very humanoid. And they don't necessarily come across as an entirely different species in the Netflix show. So, it's like we don't really know things that we know in the book. So, like their animosity toward humans. For the purpose of the show, I would agree with what you said, Charli, that it's probably just the general being neglectful.

CHARLI: Hmm.

ALYSSA: But I don't know.

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: Yeah. And it would have been interesting if they could have tried to think of a way they could have explained it, because, if he has all of Mousesack’s thoughts, maybe he could somehow get around it. But they would have had to have included something where Cahir or somebody prepares him that – you know, when you go in there, you’re probably gonna have to do this.

CHARLI: Hmm.

JESS: Or had Fringilla – she's a sorceress. Maybe she gave him something, a medallion or something. Just something that could explain it. I don't know. But you're right. That was kind of – I thought those – but they were smart to include all the water drinking before this episode and not during this episode. No mention.

ALYSSA: The episode closes with doppler Mousesack taking Ciri and Dara from Brokilon. And this is a storyline that we're gonna see continued in the next episode or two.

CHARLI: I like that Eithne – it's an Irish name, right? And I see it pronounced differently all the time. It's Enya, or Eithne, or Ethnee.

ALYSSA: You don't know. I did—

JESS: We don’t know.

ALYSSA: I did these episodes with Lars from Witcherflix and he's a German. I was like, “Lars, what do you say?” He's like, “Eithne.” And I was like, “Okay. I'll say that, too.”

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: I have a deep suspicion that Sapkowski, like, loves that no one knows how to pronounce or they pronounce this stuff differently. And then he probably is like, “Exactly how I wanted it.”

CHARLI: But I was gonna say I really like – because she says to Ciri before she leaves, “Your destiny is in your own hands and no one else's.” That's a very important sentence that encapsules are how they are approaching destiny in the show. It all comes down to choice and the choices you make. That's what kind of guides Ciri in the upcoming episodes. And then I'm sure as well it will in the – in the next season, probably, in particular.

JESS: Yeah, it's Sword of Destiny is calling for you, but you have a decision too.

CHARLI: Exactly.

JESS: So, like, Calanthe made her decision and suffered the consequences of her decision. You don't always know what the consequences are going to be.

CHARLI: Mhmm.

JESS: But you, you can choose.

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: And then you have to live with whatever happens afterwards. So, it's not like you're completely guided in your life and have no control over it. You do, but destiny is always there for the outcome.

CHARLI: Yeah. And I think, at some point, I think, in Episode 7, she kind of starts questioning whether she would continue looking for Geralt at all. I'm getting way ahead of things right here. But I'm just saying I think Ciri’s considering her options and whether she really has to go after Geralt of Rivia just because her grandmother told her to or it was her grandmother's dying wish. So, I think, yeah, she's one of the three main protagonists in the show they're making her out to be. And I think, having destiny being about active choices, I think that's what drives her.

JESS: I also think it's a bigger deal with her story than Geralt’s and Yennefer’s. I think Ciri’s entire story through the whole book series has to do with, like, what choices is she going to make. What is she going to decide to do? And I think that is just a constant thing that she deals with. It’s she has to make a decision.

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: And I think this is a great way to, like, start building and set everything up.

CHARLI: Yeah.

ALYSSA: Before we jump into our standout parts of the episode, we're going to hand it over to Lars from Witcherflix for recent news on the Netflix show. When we come back, Charli, Jess, and I will continue our discussion of “Bottled Appetites.”

“Tidings from Toussaint”

[“Tidings from Toussaint” theme music by Bettina Campomanes]

LARS FROM WITCHERFLIX: Hey, it's Lars from WitcherFlix and this is "Tidings from Toussaint". Welcome back everybody. The last two weeks were kind of slow when it comes to Witcher news. But despite the pandemic the filming for season 2 is still well on its way.

According to show runner Lauren Hissrich's post on Instagram, Season 2 director Stephen Surjik has finished shooting his episodes. He was in charge for the first two episodes of season 2, so he will probably introduce us to a very special place: According to some leaks from the set we will pay the Witcher fortress Kaer Morhen a visit right at the beginning of season 2. Redanian Intelligence reported earlier this year that Stephen Surjik had been scouting filming locations on the Scottish Isle of Skye. It is famous for its spectacular and sometimes other-worldly landscapes. This would make a perfect place for Kaer Morhen. After Surjik has finished his episodes, director Sarah O'Gorman might start hers. As her previous work includes Netflix shows liked "Cursed" or "The Last Kingdom", Sarah is well equipped for another fantasy show like The Witcher. In the last few weeks she had joined the location scouts for possible filming locations in Northern England, including the Lake District and the ruins of Fountains Abbey. While they are also a perfect place to shoot scenes in Kaer Morhen, it is also possible that the remnants of the monastery could stand in for some elven ruins.

Moreover, several actors have returned to the Witcher set and started to film their scenes: Royce Pierreson (who plays the mage Istredd) has posted on Instagram that he has returned to the Witcher set. So did Tom Canton. He will reprise his role as the elf Filavandrel. According to leaks from the set that surfaced months ago, Filavandrel and the elves will play a more important role in Season 2. Moreover Wilson Radjou-Pujalte has also resumed filming. He played Dara in Season 1, Ciri's elven companion after she escaped from Cintra. It is possible that he has joined the Scoiat'ael forces that we have already seen on leaked pictures from the set. Moreover Mahesh Jadu (who plays the mage Vilgefortz) has joined Sarah O'Gorman on set, as well as Therica Wilson-Read who played the sorceress Sabrina Glevissig, Paul Bullion as the witcher Lambert and Yasen Atour as the witcher Coen.

In other Season 2 news, a very unexpected character will return: Danica (played by Imogen Daines) will come back for Season 2 and will appear in one of the first two episodes. Danica by the way is the sex worker who Geralt is with right at the beginning of episode 3 before he rides off to Vizima to fight the striga. We can only speculate what role she will play in Season 2. Redanian Intelligence reports that a whole group of sex workers will be present in Kaer Morhen for a full scene. But what exactly this scene is about, we don't know either. Moreover, Redanian Intelligence wrote another monster from the books will make an appearance in Season 2: A giant centipede will be in episode 3. We know these nasty creatures from the short story "The Sword of Destiny" when Geralt fights one of these myriapods in Brokilon Forest. In addition another kind of "monster" will return in Season 2: The eels from Aretuza will return. Tissaia de Vries turns the students who don't show enough magical talent into these eels. So, it is likely that we will learn more about the eels in season 2. And this also confirms that we will go back to Aretuza in Season 2.

There is also something to report in "Blood Origin" news: Declan de Barra (who is the showrunner for the Witcher prequel spin-off "Blood Origin" and previously wrote the Duny and Pavetta episode in Season 1 of The Witcher) posted the writer's room for the upcoming Witcher miniseries. Alongside himself, Aaron Stewart-Ahn, Kiersten Van Horne, Alex Meenehan, Tasha Huo, Troy Dangerfield, Tania Lotia and Pooja Gupta will write for the show. The writers' credits include shows like The Witcher, Mistresses, Berlin Station, Snowpiercer, Bosch, The Man in the High Castle, or Carnival Row. So we've got a lot of talent here and it is going to be very exciting to see what they will bring to the Witcher world. To remind you, "Blood Origin" chronicles the early history of the Witcher world from the mysterious Conjunction of the Spheres and the early elves to the Creation of the first Witchers.

Anyway guys, that's it for me for today. I hope you all stay safe and well. We'll talk again in the next episode of Breakfast in Beauclair. Until then, thanks again for listening and good luck on the path!

[“Tidings from Toussaint” theme music by Bettina Campomanes]

Discussion

ALYSSA: Hey, everyone, welcome back from the break. I'm here with Charli and Jess discussing Bottled Appetites from Season One of Netflix's The Witcher. When we left off, we’ve broken down the plot of the episode. And, now, it's time to dive into the key points and themes that interested us most. So, for this episode, Charli, Jess, what did you guys want to talk about?

JESS: I was just going to go into a little bit of the process of how they shot some of the effects and post production. Yeah. So, in general, I think compared to some of the episodes – because, like I mentioned before, it kind of all takes place in a very confined space. I don't think this episode had quite as many super complicated visual effects in it. Like, they didn't have to create a dragon, for example. It also didn't have the practical effects of something like having a striga. This episode is actually a little bit lighter on effects, I would say, comparatively to a lot of the other ones. But, obviously, the big one in this episode is the djinn. I think they really simplified it though. The djinn is just kind of the smoky thing. And they had, like, wind machines going to make everything windy. And they just kind of had camera movements to indicate, like, where the djinn would be flying around and all that stuff. Then there's the, the head bursting, which I talked about earlier. And then the one I'm going to mention now is the one in Ciri’s storyline when we actually see the doppler change. And what I thought was interesting about how they did it is they cut around what would end up being a big VFX shot. Having a person completely just morph into another person is a lot of work. And, so, what they did was they had shots of just the doppler’s face starting to change and starting to look like Mousesack and beginning that transformation, but in an isolated shot where he's the only one there. And, so, what they did was they would cut away to Mousesack or cut away to Cahir. And then there was maybe, like, two shots of his face changing where it was just on the doppler. And then what they did was a couple of split screenshots to show Mousesack and fake Mousesack sort of looking at each other. So, they had Mousesack looking up and sort of pan the camera. And then they had Adam Levy, obviously, now playing the doppler looking the other way and panning the camera the same way and you cut that together. So, they were smart in that they had something that could have been really, really complicated. And, by the way, they cut the scene. They sort of cut down on what could have been, like, a really expensive and, you know, time consuming – this is all my assumptions by the way.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

JESS: I didn't work on the show. This is all, like, my suspicions about what they did, but it's one of the things – the magical things about editing. It’s you can – especially in television, you not only are cutting the story together and performance and all that, but you're finding ways to help them save a little bit on the budget. We can cut this scene in a way that's effective, where we don't have to just show this guy totally changing into another person. Because, like I said earlier, you need to show the doppler changing in this episode so you can avoid having to ever show it again. We've seen it once. We know what it looks like. And, now, we can, like, move on and have, like, the surprise reveals in Episode 6 with him turning into other people. So, I think, yeah, that's one of the things I enjoy about editing anyway. It’s like helping the producers and the showrunners put the story together in the way they want to. And we've mentioned also a couple times, like, working with the showrunner to cut the episode down in post production, because the script has already been written. They've shot the script. And then, when it gets cut together, they have to start cutting it down. It looks like most of these are around 50 minutes, I think. And, usually, unless it's like a premiere or finale episode, they don't want it to be super long. So, cutting that down, working with the showrunner, and working – in this case, it would be Lauren – to get the story in, get the important parts in, and still tell the story they want to tell, and still have all the emotional beats there, and still have all the important plot points there. Yeah, that's, like, one of my favorite things about editing.

ALYSSA: Oh, that's nice. I like that you called out the scene where the doppler changes into Mousesack just because it is, as you said, like a very complex scene. So, it's really nice to hear someone who's intimately familiar with some of the processes that it might take to make that scene work. Break it down. You know, it's definitely clear that we, as an audience, can kind of infer what's going on. And we don't need to watch the whole transformation. We can see that, oops, this person is turning into something and then, now, it's Mousesack. And we can kind of fill in the blanks.

JESS: But I think Lauren has mentioned this about dealing with her audience. I know they can understand some of these things. I don't have to explain everything. That's one of the decisions that you have to make when you're cutting it together. What can we get rid of and trust that our audience can still figure out what's going on or, at least, figure out the important parts of what's going on.

ALYSSA: And, Charli, you had a couple thoughts on the soundtrack and the score in this episode as well.

CHARLI: Yeah, I just have some overall thoughts. We established that there's lots of symmetry going on in this episode, in particular, between Geralt and Yennefer and their dynamic and the relationship that's starting up. The soundtrack really brings that out as well and conveys this fact to, to the audience. And one of the scenes is the bathtub scene, which is, you know, them sitting back to back and reading each other, you know, kind of making fun of each other, but also flirting. And the music really reflects that. And you have Yennefer's oboe, which is her instrument in the show. In that bathtub scene, it's playing Geralt’s theme, for example. So, that's a nice moment of foreshadowing, of course. And then, later, during the djinn fight as Yennefer is possessed by, by the djinn, you have Geralt’s theme. And his instrument on the show is, is a hurdy gurdy. And it drives the whole thing, but, over it all, is Yennefer’s oboe again and Yennefer's strong, really forceful version of her themes playing on top of that. And it just reflects this moment really well. This culminating in them both being there and coming and joining together. Especially with a show like this where you have a lot of time jumps, it's very important that there's a distinct theme for every character or every faction because, subconsciously, it works for the audience. It helps us, you know, put things together and be able to determine which is which and what belongs to what and stuff. And we noticed these themes throughout the entire season getting lumped together. And there are different mixes and combinations of these themes as well, depending on whatever's going on on the screen. We have the last scene, as Ciri is in Brokilon Forest and is escorted by doppler Mousesack out of the forest, we have the Nilfgaard theme playing. And then we have some of the Cintra battle theme playing. And then there's woodwinds and percussion to make it a bit more earthy for the dryads. So, it all comes together really well. And we have Ciri’s instrument, which is a xun, I believe it's pronounced. It's like an ancient Chinese whistle kind of instrument.

JESS: Oh.

CHARLI: Like I said, it all ties up very, very nicely. And there's lots of symmetry. And that's just how soundtracks work. They help to get the mood across and help to get across what's happening on screen. Yeah. I could go briefly into how soundtracks are added to the TV show. That kind of ties in with Jess’ post production.

ALYSSA: Yeah, go ahead. I do know that they did all the music first for the show, which I think is supposed to be different than how it's usually done, right?

JESS: Yeah.

CHARLI: Yeah. Yeah, they started very early. Usually, soundtracks are added in post production. You know, especially with a show like this, you know, you don't want to have to make a soundtrack for every cut there is because there might not be a final cut for a while. And there'll be different cuts and different edits until the final thing is, you know, done.

JESS: Yeah, they usually make pieces—

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: —that you can use in the edit.

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: And then they'll officially score it when the edit is finished and they have, like, the final version of what the picture looks like.

CHARLI: Yeah. And, so, during production, usually, the composer or composers, plural, they'll get together with the director or directors, plural. Lauren Schmidt Hissrich, I'm sure, in this case, as she is the showrunner and has the final say. They get together during production and discuss, you know, some of the scenes and where the music should set in, where it should fade out, kind of the visuals and the mood that should be, you know, gotten across. So, that's discussed. And, at the end – and this is called spotting. You have to kind of just establish where everything goes and the relationships between characters and what's what.

JESS: It's less about where, where it actually comes in in picture. It's more, like, the general, like, tones. And—

CHARLI: Exactly. Yeah. You know, sometimes, there'll be a piano in the room and you'll, like, play some, some things you've thought of, because I think the composers, in this case, especially they got sent the scripts way earlier. And, after spotting, you should have a general idea. And only then you start actually picking up the instrument and composing and writing something. I mean I'm sure there's cases and composers who pick up the instrument right away and just have at it, but it's not how it's usually done. So, yeah – but this is during post production then when the soundtrack is actually made. But, with the Witcher, they started I think they said in, like, October of 2018. So, way early during production, because, in the Witcher, there is music actually, as we discussed. It’s part of the scene. There’s dances at the banquets, for example. There's taverns. There is, of course, the ballads that Jaskier writes and sings during some of the episodes. So, they had to have these pieces ready for filming, because the characters had to react to the music. And, like I said last time, Toss A Coin is like a character in this universe. Everybody reacts to it. So, it was written way early. So, yeah, things were done a little differently on the Witcher. And they had a lot of time to, to work on the soundtrack once those dances and stuff were decided upon.

JESS: Yeah, the technical word is diegetic music. Meaning music that we can see that they can hear. Jaskier singing Toss A Coin or whatever or the music at the dance. All that – that stuff has to be done ahead of time, because you have to play it back. Like, Joey Batey is not singing out loud in every take because he would lose his voice. And he can sing during that. He can sing along or whatever, but they have to be able to play it for him so he has the cue of when the song comes in and all that. And I'm sure, before post production also, they had established what instruments they were using for the show and what sort of the Yennefer’s theme would kind of sound like and what Geralt's theme would kind of sound like.

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: And, so, I'm sure they were working on that, like, well, before they got into the editing. And you give those elements to the editor to put in to the cut. So, when they watch it, they have an idea of how it will sound and how it's going to feel with the music in it, because, in a show like this – some shows, like, especially comedy shows, the music maybe isn't quite as important in telling the story. But this is, like, a huge – it’s a huge part of it. So, we want that in there when you're showing people what the episodes going to look like. They should be hearing sort of what the music is going to sound like. Yeah. And then, when it's actually the edit is done, it’s when, like, sort of the final score gets, like, put into the final picture.

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: So, it's clear they spent a lot of time, which is really funny, because, when the trailer came out, people were like, “What's with this generic music?” And it's like, “Guys, calm down.”

ALYSSA: As you both were just talking about, like, the soundtrack is so critical to us as like an audience but also to the characters within the universe. And it's really amazing – the work that they did on that and the volume of tracks that I think it's, like, 70 tracks. And we'll be getting – as you said, Charli, vinyls and a CD as well, which is really exciting.

JESS: I think, aside from, like, visuals, you know, the costumes and all that stuff, when you read the books, you get some of the Slavic feel through the language. The way they talk, you get some of the humor. So, the music is another way you can give it that feeling.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

CHARLI: Yeah, they definitely used instruments that were common in, like, Poland or Slavic countries in general in the Middle Ages. And, yeah – and lots of the electrical instruments that you refer to earlier, Jess, were actually – I think I heard them say that what sounds, like, an electrical guitar on the soundtrack is actually a hurdy gurdy, but with distortion. So—

JESS: Yeah.

CHARLI: Yeah. You can really get creative and inventive with these kind of instruments in particular. It’s really through fun. It must be really fun. I wouldn't know. I've never scored a – scored a TV show, but—

JESS: She seems like she's having a great time in, in our Instagram. So—

ALYSSA: Yeah. I mean it's really cool. And, like, Sonya Belousova, you know, every couple weeks or so, she'll drop a bunch of behind-the-scenes information about how they scored the show, what thought went into writing some lyrics. So, it's really cool. So, if you, like, follow her on Twitter. I'm more on Instagram. She's been making it public, which is pretty cool.

CHARLI: Bless her.

ALYSSA: Yeah. And then she's like – she's really doing the people's work.

JESS: It's really nice how many people who worked on this show are really excited about it.

CHARLI: Yeah.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

CHARLI: It shows. It shows. And you can definitely feel it while you watch it. Everyone was having fun.

JESS: Yeah, that they really like what they're doing.

CHARLI: Yeah.

ALYSSA: Absolutely. And I think that kind of takes us to the books. And we can take the opportunity to chat about like comparisons to the books as we close out this episode of the podcast. Considering the adaptation of The Last Wish – the short story, The Last Wish – to screen in this episode as well as a little bit about some creatures that we have in Ciri’s tagline as well. There are kind of three major changes or points of comparison that we can make to the books. The first is in the adaptation of The Last Wish and it refers to Geralt’s motivation. In the Netflix show, Geralt does know that there's a djinn in that lake. And he specifically goes out looking for it. Whereas, in the books, Geralt and Jaskier are simply just fishing. The second change is that Yennefer does not know what Geralt’s wish is in the Netflix show. Whereas, in the books, she overhears what his wishes. And the last point of change is in Ciri’s storyline with Nilfgaard. And it's really more about who dopplers are and how the lore established in the Netflix show. And the actions established in the Netflix show changed our understanding of dopplers compared to the ones from the books in The Eternal Flame.

JESS: With Geralt’s motivation, I think it gives it a nice thread through the episode and a nice way to round out the episode by adding that in the show. Like, that was a really good decision. But it did bring up some sort of, I guess, minor plot holes in the sense of, like, how did he know there's a djinn in this lake. And, if there's a djinn in the lake, why isn't, like, everybody looking for the djinn in the lake. And it was remarkably easy for him to find the djinn in the lake. So, it added a few sort of, like, things that was like, “Well, don't think about it too hard. Let's just move on.” It also – I think the biggest change with having that be his motivation is his relationship with the Jaskier we see is very different because Jaskier sort of runs into him. And Geralt's annoyed and he brings up the sleeplessness. Whereas, in the show – or, sorry, in the book, they've been hanging out. They’re fishing together. They're starving, which is something that the show kind of doesn't address very much either. It’s that Geralt is often really poor and doesn't have very much. So, he and Jaskier are both, like, hungry. And, so, they have to fish for dinner. And they end up finding this djinn in the lake, which also gives it an element of fairytale. Like, two friends fishing and they find the djinn. Whereas the show, because the show I think, in all the episodes that are a fairytale stories, has to establish a lot more for the long term, they kind of cut back on a lot of the fairytale elements that the book has. And this would be like an example of that for this episode. I think it worked doing it, but it definitely gave a slightly different feeling. There's also this element that Geralt – because, in the book, his motivation is not to find the djinn. It's just – he's with Jaskier and they end up finding it, he's very adamant about saving him and about doing whatever it takes to save his friend. And, in the show, it's a little bit more like, “Oh, they're friends, but he doesn't really like him that much. But it's kind of his fault that Jaskier got hurt. So, he's gonna do what he can and begrudgingly admit that they're friends.”

CHARLI: Hmm.

JESS: So, it's a very different feel, even though, like, the plot points of the story are the same.

CHARLI: I don't really understand why they changed that because, in the books, Jaskier knows Geralt very, very well. Like, he's a loud mouth and Geralt is annoyed by him often and calls him out on it and says he's an idiot and whatnot. But, deep down, he knows that Jaskier is his closest friend and that Jaskier probably knows him best. So, I don't really see the point in changing that. Then, again, maybe as the show progresses, maybe they want their friendship to establish in front of the audience's eyes as opposed to their friendship already being very much established. I don't know. Jaskier kind of also hints that it's been a few years since they last seen each other. So, they haven't been traveling constantly. They just happen to run into each other here. It's – it's so different. They're not close. They're not close in the show.

JESS: Yeah. You don't get the feeling in the show that these are two guys who go to brothels together and go get drunk together.

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: And argue about philosophy when they're drunk. Even though they're very different people, they really enjoy ribbing each other and hanging out.

CHARLI: And I mean, also, Jaskier, in the books, calls Geralt out on his bullcrap.

JESS: Oh, yeah.

CHARLI: You know, he, he doesn't shy away from scolding Geralt and that's not in the show at all so far.

JESS: And Geralt doesn't shy away from telling Jaskier that he's being an idiot.

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: But without malice. It's not done in a way that's like, “I don't want you around me because you're an idiot.” It's like, “Jaskier, you're an idiot,” which is a big change.

CHARLI: I feel like Roach has replaced Jaskier as Geralt’s best friend on the show.

ALYSSA: They did plan to make a joke of it, definitely.

JESS: Which is kind of weird because Roach can't live for 90 years.

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: Like, there's many Roaches. But, on the show, they've made him like this magical – because it's obviously the same horse. It's, like, this magic horse that's live for, like, 50 years already or something.

ALYSSA: I wonder if they're actually gonna replace the horse, like, continually the same way that they do on the books. I guess, we'll see.

JESS: Maybe Geralt just has, like, sorceresses that just, like, clone his horse for him.

CHARLI: Yes.

JESS: And he’s just like, “I can't – I can't have another horse.”

ALYSSA: It's a good use of magic. You know, as, as we're talking about Geralt being super proactive about his horse, as both of you have talked about throughout our discussions, he’s being a more proactive protagonist throughout the context in the Netflix show. He's actively making decisions for himself, which never happens in the books. Like, up until this point, throughout all the short stories in the books, Geralt is always just kind of there and things seem to happen to him as opposed to, in the show, he's actually you know, pushing the plot forward a little bit.

CHARLI: A little bit.

JESS: I think, in the books, too, doesn't he – he sort of like – he, like, resigned himself to whatever happens a lot in the books. He’s sort of just like—

ALYSSA: Yeah.

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: Well—

CHARLI: Whatever. Here we go again.

JESS: Yeah, here we go. And—

ALYSSA: Yeah.

JESS: —I mean he, he does it in a way that sounds very fancy when he makes these little speeches, which Yennefer calls him out on. Yeah. He just is kind of like, “Well, I guess I made a mistake. And I'm gonna have to put up with whatever happens.” You're like, “Okay.”

ALYSSA: He does act – he does act in the books. But the initial instigation for why he ends up in any specific place, he's just kind of there.

JESS: Yeah.

ALYSSA: And we take for granted – like, let's say, in A Grain of Truth, he just approaches the house. And, like, he sees people on the road and then goes to where the dead people are. We see in, like, A Question of Price, he was asked to be at this banquet. So, he shows up for the banquet. And, in The Last Wish, as you said Jess, it's like a fairytale. There are two friends fishing on a river and then they catch a genie. And everything that follows is kind of a reaction to whatever instigated that thing.

JESS: Yeah, he is given more of, like, instead of just being invited to the banquet, he's given a job by Jaskier, which he actually has to perform at some point. He actually has to be his bodyguard for a second.

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: In this one, he's trying to solve his sleeplessness issue. He's given more character motivation for why he is where he is. Unless you're literally going to do like a fairytale story where the plot doesn't progress past a point, you have to make him proactive.

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: Because the story is going to continue and there's larger themes and larger plots happening. So, yeah. So, I think, yeah, they definitely needed that, especially, as we said before, he doesn't talk as much.

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: So, you have to make him more active.

CHARLI: Yeah, we are not inside his head like in the books, like we said already. So, you have to show him do stuff.

JESS: Yeah.

ALYSSA: Or you have to give him characters that are going to get that information out of him.

CHARLI: Exactly. Yeah.

ALYSSA: And, in this case, we do. We have a character that serves as a not quite an antagonist, but we have Yennefer, who we've kind of grown with over the last few episodes. And then, now, we're seeing her in direct contrast to Geralt, which is kind of what the show is about. Like, we're seeing them, you know, interact for the first time here. And this is one of the points of change from the books. It’s kind of how that relationship evolves throughout the course of the show and then, ultimately, the tenderness or lack of tenderness by the end of the episode.

JESS: Yeah, I think what you kind of made a point just there when you introduced it that she's not quite an antagonist on the show, partly, because we know her already and, partly, because of her behavior. She – initially, when she meets Geralt, she's very flirtatious. And then she becomes a little bit more direct after she finds out about the djinn. Whereas, in the book, we don't know her at all. And this is the first time we're meeting her. And she's absolutely an antagonist, because her first reaction to Geralt is somewhat violent. She throws a spell at him. She's very not happy of being disturbed. And then, when she finds out about the djinn in the book, then she becomes flirtatious, which is what we said before about using her sexuality. In the book, she absolutely does. She realizes – again, she can read his mind in the book as well. She realizes that he finds her attractive. And she uses that to then get information out of him about the djinn and how many wishes were made and blah, blah. She's very flirtatious in the bath part of the story.

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: She makes herself almost invisible on purpose. She does all of that to distract him and get him to talk. Whereas, in the show, at that point, she's not flirtatious anymore. They're just sort of talking and figuring each other out. And she's, again, a little bit more direct. How many wishes did the bard express?

CHARLI: Mhmm.

JESS: And the – and they're sort of going back and forth. Her whole behavior towards him, between the two stories, is almost the opposite—

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: —at different plot points in the novel. 

CHARLI: It's reversed.

JESS: Yeah, including that ending. Because she heard the wish, she knows that this guy, who could have wished for literally anything, gave that up to save her life. And he didn't have to do that.

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: And that touches her very deeply. That's why their love scene in the book is very tender. And they even make the point that neither of them are used to being that way with anyone, but they wanted to and, so, they were. They wanted to be tender. And they wanted to be loving with each other. And, so, they were. So, in the show, that's completely the other way around again, because she didn't hear the wish. Because it was sort of this attraction from the beginning in the show, the end result is, like, a release of this attraction that's happened. And we see the results of that as the show goes on. Part of that is the result of hearing the wish or not hearing the wish.  It changes what their problems are as a couple, I think.

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: I mean this is a little bit further in the story, but, in the end, the resolution of their back and forth, we never hear it. So, it's a very easy fix of the show, too if you make the problem the wish. If they do it like the book did, we're never going to hear what they say to resolve their problem. We just know that they did and they have sort of come to a new place in the relationship. But, yeah, it's interesting how the whole interaction is sort of flipped. 

CHARLI: Yeah. Yeah, it's reduced to simple infatuation and finding each other attractive at this point. And I do think part of that is due to the pacing of the show, though, and that you can't put all of the stuff that's in the books into the show. It just doesn't fit in eight hours of television. So, they kind of have to simplify things a bit.

JESS: Yeah. If you don't have people's inner thoughts, how do you show that two people fell in love?

CHARLI: Exactly. Yeah.

JESS: In the matter of – what is this? Like, a day? 24 hours? That's an almost impossible task.

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: So, it had to be a different kind of affection. And it couldn't be that they're, like, completely in love with each other because there's no way to show that through telling this story. My bigger question is, if all the relationships on the show are sort of not quite where they end up in the book, how do they continue to build them to get to the point they need to be—

CHARLI: Mhmm.

JESS: —with less time, I guess?

ALYSSA: I'd imagine we'll probably see further time jumps or—

CHARLI: Yeah.

ALYSSA: —something else as the show progresses. I think, in regards the relationship though, I think your point, Jess, about the audience only knows what the audience knows. Like, showing people falling in love, I think, as you said, is really, really, really hard across, like, entire films. It's hard across, like, seasons and seasons of television. How are they going to show it in not even a full episode but in part of an episode? 

CHARLI: Yeah.

ALYSSA: I think that that's a really interesting point.

CHARLI: How are they going to show it and make it believable—

JESS: Believable. Yes.

CHARLI: —to, to the audience? That's the thing. And, in the books, I mean we believe it because we have Yennefer making sure that the authorities in Rinde know that Geralt was under her spell and he didn't act out of his own free will. So, we know that she cared for him enough to make sure that he would be fine.

JESS: You have all those thoughts of what he thinks of her.

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: All of his reactions to her.

CHARLI: The perfume, that's recurring. He's obsessed with her smell already.

JESS: Yeah, because the first thing he interacts with, in the book, is the scent.

CHARLI: Mhmm.

JESS: Which you can't put in a show because we can't see it.

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: Unless you have the scent of it like some purple mist through the house or something, like, you can't have his first reaction be, “What's that smell?”

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: Because then you’d be, “What is he talking about, you know?” So—

ALYSSA: It’s interesting, though, like, how, you know, such a small choice as not having Yennefer hear that wish is gonna – as you said, Jess, like, affect their conflict over the next few episodes and then probably over a number of seasons as well.

JESS: Because they had to have a conflict.

CHARLI: Yeah.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

JESS: And, if you're not gonna get into them, you don't have the time to establish all of that. Well, we live together for a year and then he walked out one day. And, now, I'm still mad at him about it. And then you have to come up with some other reason for a conflict. As I said before, in the book, the resolution of the conflict, we don't hear what they say to each other. Although, I think, in the show, you probably do have to show that conversation just because, again, we don't have their thoughts. So, we'd have to hear what they say to each other. But I, I think they just needed a conflict.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

CHARLI: Definitely.

JESS: The only annoying thing about it is, being someone who's read the books and played the games, there's so many people who played Witcher 3 and thought that the wish was that she would fall in love with him.

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: Which is not correct because, if that was the wish, the djinn still could have ended her life. A lot of people thought, at the end of the episode, that his wish was to fall asleep. It can't be the wish, because the djinn could have still ended her life. In the books, because they have all those secondary characters around, they give you a hint at what the wish could be, because he says, “Well, he could – you know, he could wish something very carefully and it would all work out.” And then – and then Yennefer’s sort of very emotional reaction to what he said tells us kind of what that wish probably was. You get Borch’s version of it.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

JESS: I don't know. I'm not – I'm not too sure about Borch. We, we can leave that for Episode 6.

CHARLI: Their dynamic is just completely different.

ALYSSA: Yeah, I think it'd be interesting to see, like, how it ultimately plays out over the rest of, you know, the episodes and the rest of the series. The last kind of change that we saw between the Netflix series and the books is in Ciri’s storyline with Nilfgaard, the adaptation of a doppler. Dopplers appear in the short story, The Eternal Flame. And then they, ultimately, don't appear again as part of the worlds or the lore, but, that being said, considering that short story, Ciri never encounters it. In the books, Geralt does.  There's a few things that we learn throughout The Eternal Flame about dopplers. So, things like what the limitations of their powers are, that they could change into, you know, people of relative size, and they won't be changing into a mastodon or mouse as Geralt puts it. It's never really outwardly explicitly stated, but I would assume that a doppler can't really transform into something that it's never seen. So, that's something that's not necessarily clear from the Netflix series. And we also do know that dopplers are inherently good from The Eternal Flame. The Netflix series immediately says, “We know you're not a good one.” So, it kind of negates, I think, some of the backstory behind dopplers. Yeah, it was a really big casting surprise when we were told that we were getting a doppler Mousesack and we were getting a doppler Cahir. You know, months before production, this is the storyline that netted out the necessity for dopplers.

CHARLI: I think one of the reasons that doppler is in the show – they went with a doppler – is because it will give them options in the future to work with because he can transform into anyone. I'm sure they will use that at a later point in the show. So, so, the Netflix show hints at there being good dopplers and bad dopplers. And, bad dopplers, they just seem to want stuff for themselves. They want to, like, use other people's skins and identities to make themself perfect maybe in a way, aesthetically pleasing.

JESS: Maybe it just disguised a sociopath doppler.

CHARLI: Maybe. Maybe it's just this one guy.

JESS: And most of them are pretty normal. Yeah. We don't know how many there are either. There could only be—

CHARLI: Yeah, we don't know.

JESS: —a hundred of them and—

CHARLI: It does kind of sound like he's one of a kind.

JESS: Or he's just famously bad.

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: It's also interesting. Do, do nice dopplers look as creepy as he does when he's in his doppler form?

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: Because they change that, too. I mean you can't have a doppler looking – their [Inaudible 1:00:30] is like a blob, right?

ALYSSA: They’re described as looking like a mix of mud and flour.

CHARLI: Yeah.

ALYSSA: I mean they kind of did that on the show. Like, they did make it look like dried out clay.

JESS: Yeah, but he looks like a person as opposed to, like, a pile of—

CHARLI: Yeah, mush. Yeah.

JESS: He also looked quite evil. I mean he looked very evil. This is like in Harry Potter, where, like, if you decide disapparate and you're a bad guy, you disapparate with black smoke. And, if you disapparate and you're a good guy, it's white smoke. And it's like, “Who decided that?”

ALYSSA: It's like, in the books, I think the doppler is kind of amorphous. Like, it can't – it just physically can't hold shape. Like, I think—

JESS: Yeah.

ALYSSA: —there's a scene where they strapped Dudu with like a silver studded belt or something like that. And his nose is, like, kind of falling off his face while he's talking and just like getting into the soup. Like, I mean we'll see, in future episodes of the Netflix show, that's not really possible with the doppler and what the doppler is doing for it to be amorphous.

JESS: I mean they’re probably not possible budget wise.

CHARLI: Yes.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

JESS: He might end up looking like Jabba the Hutt, you know, or like—

ALYSSA: Well, I can't imagine like a doppler trying to fight.

JESS: Yeah.

ALYSSA: And then, like, throws its arms and its arms just kind of, like, stretches out and just kind of, like, slaps the protagonist.

JESS: It becomes a comedy sequence.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

CHARLI: That would be weird.

ALYSSA: But, like, when the doppler changed into, like, its clay form in the – in the next episode, it keeps Mousesack’s clothes.

CHARLI: Yeah.

ALYSSA: And, in the books, it's, like, the doppler – the doppler’s clothes are part of it. So, if it changed back, presumably, it would just be a blob and it wouldn't have any clothes or something.

CHARLI: Yeah.

ALYSSA: So, like, it's interesting that they had it keep Mousesack’s clothes, but it did a full body transformation.

JESS: They established in the book that he – the clothes are part of the transformation. Like, they're not real clothes.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: They're part of his body [Inaudible 1:02:24].

CHARLI: Ooh.

ALYSSA: Like, it's like part of – it's part of the body. Like, you can't take it off, but it does turn into like real wool.

JESS: I gotcha. Yeah.

CHARLI: I think, even when they morph into someone with a weapon in their hand, isn't it that the weapon is part of them as well? Like, everything they copy is a part of their blobness.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

JESS: So, if they were gonna keep it more accurate then, when he chased Mousesack down, he would have had to get naked. Oh, no. That was another body. So, he would have—

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: That clothing would have shifted like it did.

ALYSSA: It would have just changed. But then, when he turned into himself in Episode 6, that clothing should have, like, just gone away.

CHARLI: Yeah.

ALYSSA: So, it would have been a naked blob.

JESS: Or just a naked dude, I guess.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

CHARLI: Yeah.

ALYSSA: So, I don't know. So, he says a whole bunch of stuff. And I don't think Sapkowski cares enough to really flesh out this.

JESS: No, he doesn’t.

CHARLI: Hmm. No, he doesn’t.

ALYSSA: To really flesh out the lore. So—

JESS: I mean he’s a very typical, like, fantasy trope, right? A shapeshifter, somebody that can change.

CHARLI: Yeah.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

JESS: And I think probably because, before, you know, science and whatnot, people were like, “Are there people that can do this?” And that's how it all started back in the day. But I think – yeah, Sapkowski is notoriously a writer who writes what he needs for his story—

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: —and not write for the lore—

ALYSSA: Yeah.

JESS: —of the overall world. He's like, “I'm having this character. I need him to do this in the story.”

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: He's gonna say this, because it's funny. Then we're never gonna see doppler again.

CHARLI: Yeah, he does – he does make a point of not, not caring about the world building at all. He always says this. When asked during interviews --

ALYSSA: Yeah.

CHARLI: —he always says, “I just wrote it, because it had to be there because this character had to do this and that and had to end up there and that. And I didn't think about, you know, what it implies for the universe or anything.” So—

ALYSSA: Yeah.

JESS: That's part of the charm of his writing and his sense of humor.

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: It’s like – like we said with people not pronouncing names right. I'm sure he's like, “Great.” He doesn't care a flying fuck.

CHARLI: He probably doesn’t know how to pronounce of the names he created.

JESS: He pronounce them however he wants to. And he's like, “Yeah, it’s Irish.”

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: But I say it like this. I don't care.”

CHARLI: I mean it's cool, because he kind of created a universe – a fantasy universe as an afterthought.

JESS: It's interesting.

CHARLI: It's not consistent throughout, but it works. So, yeah.

JESS: It works even though I think 99 percent of writers, if they tried to do it, it would not work.

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: I think it's part of his skill.

ALYSSA: I know. Even when we were in Lucca during his panel, he was like, “The characters only serve the plot.” And I think Lars quoted him in the last episode of the podcast, Episode 15. So, ultimately, the show is going to have to do things that serve the plot and the story and the in universe logic. So, it'll – yeah. So, it'll be really interesting, I think, to see.

JESS: Fortunately, they have the end point of everything.

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: Because the books are done.

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: So, they know where they need to end and what the main plot points are that they have to get there with. So, that's sort of the important part.

ALYSSA: Yeah. Yeah. I mean we're kind of, like, at the end of all the content for this specific episode of the Netflix series. I mean did you guys have any, like, last minute thoughts on Episode 105, Bottled Appetites?

JESS: I think it – overall, it was a pretty good episode, I don't think it's my favorite just because I prefer the ones where they do feel a little bit bigger and the world feels a little bit bigger. But I thought, in terms of how they adapt the story, again, adding the sleeplessness thing and how they condensed it, I think they did it, overall, like, in a pretty smart way to move the overall plot along. And I think it was great to finally have two timelines catch up to each other.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

JESS: And it was great to have these two characters come together. I watched somebody watching the episode for the first time. And they were like, “I didn't expect to have the leads to be love interests.” Like, for some reason, because they're in these different timelines and because of what Yennefer was doing and what Geralt was doing, they, they expected maybe she's the villain or maybe this. Or they didn't expect that to be the love story. And I was like, “It was really nice to see their chemistry and begin that part of the journey.” Because that is one of people’s sort of favorite elements of the story.

CHARLI: Yeah.

JESS: It’s that relationship.

CHARLI: I can only second that. I completely agree. The episode did a really good job of adapting this short story for a medium, for television. Obviously, there are differences. But, like I said last week, it's not bad. It's not worse. It's just different. And that's okay, because it's a different medium. And we have to remember that we're not inside the characters heads. And their interactions, I think, are believable. I think the chemistry is really good. It's a good setup for, for things to come, in my opinion.

ALYSSA: Yeah, I would absolutely say that this really just feels like the beginning for the two of them. And we have so much more to go in terms of where their storylines are going and where their relationship, you know, together goes. And this is just the beginning. So, that is it for our show today. Charli, Jess, thank you so much for joining us for this episode and thank you to our hanza for listening. So, where can people find you guys? And is there anything that our community can help you with or anything that you'd like to share with them?

CHARLI: I don't have anything to pitch personally. But, yeah, I mean my Instagram is @xCharlix. That's X-C-H-A-R-L-I-X.  If people want, they can follow me there.

JESS: Yeah, nothing to pitch. Nothing to tell about with. But, if you want to follow me on Twitter—

ALYSSA: Hey, it's Alyssa. So, Jess updated her Twitter handle between the recording and now. If you wanted to follow her on Twitter, her new handle is @JessWoots, J-E-S-S-W-O-O-T-S.

JESS: If you're interested and you just want to ask me any questions about anything to do with post production or whatever, feel free.

ALYSSA: Next episode, join us as we discuss the witcher’s famous dragon hunt in our coverage of Episode 6, “Rare Species.”

CHARLI: Yay.

ALYSSA: Woohoo.

Outro & Credits

[Breakfast in Beauclair theme music by MojoFilter Media]

ALYSSA: Thanks for joining us at the breakfast table! For show notes, transcripts of each episode, and a complete list of our social platforms and listening services, head over to breakfastinbeauclair.com.

Breakfast in Beauclair is created by Alyssa from GoodMorhen. It’s hosted by Alyssa with the “Tidings from Toussaint” News Segment by Lars from WitcherFlix. The show is edited by Alyssa with the Breakfast in Beauclair theme by MojoFilter Media and the “Tidings from Toussaint” theme by Bettina Campomanes.

Breakfast in Beauclair is produced by Alyssa in New York City with Luis of Kovir, The Owner of The Churlish Porpoise, Arix the Godling, Katie (The Redhead of Toussaint), Jacob B., Julie, Sylvia of Skellige, Jamison, Ayvo of Gulet, Bee Haven of the Edge of the World, Jacob Meeks, Sebastian von Novigrad, Charlotte from Vengerberg Glamarye, RedKite, The Original Roach, AerialKitty, TheOneTrueChef, Dustin, Chris K. of Kovir, and Libby, The Castel Ravello Sommelier.

Special thanks to Charli and Jess S. for joining us for this episode and our international hanza for their support.

Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo
Editor: Krizia Casil

 

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