Ep. 8 — "The Bounds of Reason" with Anita and Karolina of Witcher Kitchen (Part 1)

Anita & Karolina of Witcher Kitchen join Alyssa from GoodMorhen to discuss the first part of the first short story from Andrzej Sapkowski’s Sword of Destiny, “The Bounds of Reason.” Very important bits include: Polish legends of basilisks, leshys, and Smok Wawelski, Arthurian legends as visual inspiration for the Witcher Universe, insight into the origins of Yennefer’s character, and an unexpected dissertation on the history of potatoes.

This episode is available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, and Stitcher.

Transcript

Cold open

KAROLINA: And in this conversation with Borch… I want to talk in Polish.

ANITA: Yes.

KAROLINA: I don’t have to think about Polish version. And, when I read English, it's like, “Hmm.”

ANITA: “Who’s that?”

KAROLINA: “Okay.”

ANITA: “Who’s that?”

KAROLINA: I don't know anything.

ANITA: Yes.

Introduction

[Breakfast in Beauclair theme music by MojoFilter Media]

ALYSSA: Welcome to Breakfast in Beauclair, a global Witcher Podcast. My name is Alyssa from GoodMorhen, and I’ll be your host as you, I, and our international hanza accompany Geralt of Rivia and his destiny, Cirilla of Cintra, across The Continent.

[New Book—Whoo hoo!—and a call for Feedback]

I can’t believe we’re kicking off our next book in this episode! Now that you and I have gotten to know each other and gotten into the swing of things, I’d appreciate any feedback on the content of the show or it’s online odds and ends. What do you like? What don’t you like? What do you want more of in the episodes or on social? Do you never want me to start a sentence with “So” or “And” ever again? Let me know!

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[Episode Details]

As for this episode, we’re joined by our Polish friends, Anita and Karolina of Witcher Kitchen, to discuss the first short story from Andrzej Sapkowski’s Sword of Destiny, “The Bounds of Reason.” Together, we’ll explore themes such as Sapkowski’s weaving of existing legends of basilisks and Smok Wawelski into his short story, Arthurian legends as visual inspiration for the Witcher Universe, insight into the origins of Yennefer’s character, and an unexpected dissertation on the history of potatoes.

During the mid-episode break, Lars from Witcherflix returns with a boatload of quotes from recent interviews with the cast and crew, which give us insight into the character and production processes.

Without further ado, let’s get to this episode’s short story, “The Bounds of Reason.”

Discussion

[Breakfast in Beauclair stinger by MojoFilter Media]

ALYSSA: Welcome to Breakfast in Beauclair. My name is Alyssa, and, today, we're joined by our friends, Anita and Karolina of Witcher Kitchen from Poland. Hey, guys.

ANITA: Hello.

KAROLINA: Hi.

ANITA: Hello. Nice to meet you, the audience.

ALYSSA: Could you tell us a little bit more about yourselves and your project?

ANITA: Yes, of course. Our story is quite interesting, because the first encounter was caused by a Witcher-inspired recipe.

KAROLINA: Yeah.

ANITA: I was doing my blog about food in video games. And I posted about food design in games and so on. Someone from my followers asked me about a recipe for Mahakam Potato Soup from Season of Storms. And I told him, “Sorry. I'm not making food from books, but I can help you with that.” So, I Googled some Polish recipes, and I encountered Karolina's blog. And I really liked it. I really like the photos, the recipes. So, I just contacted her. And then we figured out we live very close by. Like, 40 kilometers only. And we decided to meet during some fantasy convention in Poznań, Poland. It's called Pyrkon. And it's all about fantasy stuff, and it was the beginning of our common story. That's how we decided to establish a separate project dedicated to Witcher cuisine. So, we call it Witcher Kitchen.

ALYSSA: That's so nice.

ANITA: Mhmm. Yes. Our project is just about food from Witcher’s Universe based on both books and video games.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ANITA: Because there's a lot of food elements and inspirations. We just want to invite the community for a culinary journey for Witcher’s Universe and help them transform their kitchens into an inn filled with scents and taste of the universe.

KAROLINA: Yes, and the most important for us is, also, educate them about Polish cuisine and Witcher cuisine, because it's connected with Andrezj Sapkowski.

ANITA: With his roots.

KAROLINA: Yes, exactly.

ANITA: Yes. All the descriptions he provided in the books are very specific—

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ANITA: —or very, like, connected, not only with Polish cuisine but also European ones. But that's basically what we're doing.

ALYSSA: Awesome. Can you tell me a little bit about how food plays an important role in The Witcher Universe in both the books and the games?

ANITA: So, Karolina, maybe you will take the part now?

KAROLINA: Okay. The cuisine is very important and shows how our characters feels, what they think. We think that it's very important to characters and the bond. People are not very know about it—

ANITA: Yes.

KAROLINA: —because they think it's only a background. Food—

ANITA: It’s described more specifically.

KAROLINA: Yeah, more specific. 

ANITA: Yes, when it comes to bonding.

KAROLINA: Yeah, exactly.

ALYSSA: Interesting. Yeah.

ANITA: Yes.

KAROLINA: And we have examples from Baptism of Fire.

ANITA: Yes.

ALYSSA: My favorite.

ANITA: Baptism of Fire, when, when we have a fish soup. 

KAROLINA: And, in Season of Storms, you have—

ANITA: For example, lamb—

KAROLINA: Yeah.

ANITA: —baked with eggplants, goose sides, and white wine, and bake fruits—

KAROLINA: Yeah.

ANITA: —and so on.

KAROLINA: And then you have A Question of Price—

ANITA: Where the feast takes place.

KAROLINA: Yeah.

ANITA: When the quotation arrived and descriptions are rather general.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ANITA: They were not so specific as in the cases when people are gathering, talking. And, in fact, Sapkowski writes it very it specific when it comes to direct conversations.

KAROLINA: Yeah. And, for example, we can note that some characters like Lambert can't cook very well. 

ALYSSA: Yes! Haha!

KAROLINA: Yeah. 

ANITA: They're always complaining about his—

KAROLINA: Skills. Yeah.

ANITA: Because I’m more into video games, I can tell you about the food design there and what is the role. It's not only about mechanics in games, not only about boosting or replenishing your health, but it also has its part in storytelling. For example, you have various quests with Keira Metz and her beef with Zerrikanian spices and wine from Zubarran. Dandelion mentions that he loves, for example, rabbit with thyme and rosemary. We have some quests when we get some baked apples from an old lady. Then we have Millie and her Aunt Lucy with Slavic pancakes. And they're called, Podłomyki. It's about the Polish cuisine, the real Polish cuisine. And we don't have a direct translation for it in English. So, we just call it Slavic pancakes. They're made from wholemeal flour and water basically and some oil.

KAROLINA: The Slavic pancakes is example about bond between games and books because it's a traditional Polish cuisine.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

KAROLINA: And, in books, we have, for example, Log Driver’s Soup, Zupa Flisacka in Polish. And it's – yeah. It’s present only in Polish lands. And it's, it’s connected with people who transport—

ANITA: On the river, from the upper parts to lower parts of Poland.

KAROLINA: Yeah, exactly. It’s something cool for us in the books and in the games. We have this connection with traditional Polish cuisine.

ANITA: If we gather some people in the scene—

KAROLINA: Mhmm.

ANITA: —they're talking about food. They're enjoying it. They're bonding. Like, in real life, it just brings us all together, I guess, in a very nice way.

ALYSSA: Today, Anita, Karolina, and I will be discussing “The Bounds of Reason,” the first short story in Andrezj Sapowski’s Sword of Destiny. Part I starts, while Geralt hunts a basilisk; a curious man and his Zerrikanian escort defend the Witcher’s belongings from thieves. The man, Borch, also known as Three Jackdaws, invites the Witcher to dine with him at a local inn, the Pensive Dragon. So, when we’re dropped into the story, we hear from a lot of other people, who are waiting outside of a dungeon for the Witcher. The local people are just arguing over who should take his stuff, basically.

ANITA: Filthy thieves!

ALYSSA: Yeah. They're trying to rob him while he's down there because they assume that he's dead.

ANITA: The first creature encountered by the Witcher in this story is basilisk. And it's one of the two examples of cultural reference to Polish legends transferred to the Witcher’s Universe, but, of course, in some changed form. In Poland, the legend about basilisk is quite popular. It says that in some Warsaw ruins in the basement lived a basilisk, which turned people into stone. There are many legends about this creature, in fact. Various characters play the roles of many heroes of these legends. Sometimes, it’s a tailor. Once it’s a guy called Jan Ślązak, who’s wrongly accused of murdering his companion. In another time, it’s just a brave girl named Magda. Regardless of who fights with the creature, it’s always defeated in the same way – by looking at its own image in the mirror. And, in the story, local people gathered before the cave are suspecting that Geralt is probably already dead because he didn't have a mirror.

ALYSSA: Oh, yeah.

KAROLINA: And, in Sapkowski’s book, we have that quote about killing these monsters at the beginning of the story. One of them said that the Witcher probably won't be killed, because—

ANITA: He doesn't have a mirror. 

KAROLINA: He doesn’t have a mirror. Yeah. I think that was in Lady of the Lake.

ANITA: Mirrors aren’t necessarily, because you cannot fight basilisk with a mirror, because it's just, you know, some legends.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ANITA: It's not really working. You can only smash his head with the mirror, not just to show it to him because he won't turn into stone as the legend says.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

KAROLINA: And this is the spiritual connection between our Polish legend and this part of the book.

ANITA: Yes, this story, which we are discussing right now, it's full of connections with Polish culture and so on.

KAROLINA: Yeah.

ANITA: We can tell you more about it later.

ALYSSA: Yeah. I mean that's what I love about having you guys on. It’s that I'm just learning so much. I'm just sitting here with a big grin on my face. The local people are stopped though by a stranger with thick curly chestnut hair. He's wearing a dark brown tunic over a padded coat and high riding boots. And he was not carrying a weapon. These two women come out from like the shadows of this dungeon. And they're described as flashing their teeth and narrowing their eyes from whose corners broad tattooed stripes ran toward their ears. The muscles of their powerful thighs were visible beneath lynx skins wrapped around their hips, and on their sinuous arms, naked above their mail gloves. Sabre hilts stuck up behind their shoulder, which were also protected by chainmail. These people defend the Witcher’s stuff. And then the Witcher comes out, sees the scene, and then, all of a sudden, chaos unfolds, because, even though the spotty-face man and the butcher tried to run away, one of the Zerrikanian women beheads the spotty-face man causing complete chaos and everyone runs away. So, that's the setup in the beginning of Part I.

ANITA: Yeah.

ALYSSA: After everyone scatters, the stranger introduces himself as Borch, also known as Three Jackdaws. And then he introduces the Zerrikanian girls, Téa and Véa. Borch invites the Witcher out to the Pensive Dragon. The Witcher says in reply, “Borch, I wouldn't want anything left unclear between us. I'm a witcher.” And Borch responds, “I guess as much. But you said it as you might have said, ‘I'm a leper.’” The Witcher responds, “There are those who prefer the company of lepers to that of a witcher.” Three Jackdaws laughs and says, “There are also those who prefer sheep to girls. Ah, well, one can only sympathize with the former and the latter. I repeat my proposal.” A theme that we've talked about continually throughout our discussion of the short stories, there's always tension and uncertainty—

ANITA: Yes.

ALYSSA: —around the perception of witchers on the continent. And Geralt is acutely aware of the way that people treat him. And, again, he's a little concerned about Borch inviting him out, and then Borch just kind of laughs it off.

ANITA: And that's suspicious.

ALYSSA: I guess I’m going into Part II.

ANITA: Our favorite one.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

KAROLINA: Yeah.

ANITA: Because it's about food.

ALYSSA: So, in Part II, while dining at the Pensive Dragon, Borch and Geralt discuss the nature of Witcher’s work, the balance between the forces of Chaos and Order, and dragons. For you, Anita and Karolina, this is, as you said, your favorite part, because it centers around a meal. So, could you tell me a little bit about the meal that's here and what it means for you guys and for the books as a whole?

ANITA: Yes, of course. So, basically, they ordered some beer, eels with garlic in olive oil and vinegar, some pickled green peppers, rafting soup, like Zupa Flisacka in Polish. So, it’s still the connection with our Polish cuisine and transporting goods through the Vistula River. Also, ordered some roasted lamb with onions, some crayfish. Sapkowski did focus on the crayfish because they are mentioned a few times --

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ANITA: —during this feast. Zerrikanians are eating and, you know, the butter is melting.

ALYSSA: They're meant to be super erotic.

ANITA: Yes, very. You associate some seafood, butter, and throw in some sexy things. You can just imagine it, because it’s – you know, it's normal at Sapkowski’s books. So, we're just used to that.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ANITA: And we love how he connects both these things, because food as well can be sexy. For me, for the sexy, because it always makes me so happy.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ANITA: They also ordered some sheep's cheese and lettuce. As we read, the menu is quite broad. The mentions about food are very specific. So, we can think about how these bonds them together and how this helps them chat, how this helps them discuss the things that are emerging through their conversation. This is a very important part of this conversation when they are in the inn. So, it's not only a background, but something that adds a flavor to the conversation. I know you like my joke.

ALYSSA: Umm, it’s very cheesy. Oh, man.

ANITA: Oh, man. We, we can go for a whole evening, okay?

ALYSSA: Just with food puns. Yeah.

ANITA: Yes. But, but I really like it. Food puns are the best. What more can we add about this conversation? Karolina, do you have something in mind?

KAROLINA: Geralt had this specific point of his view about good and bad things. Sapkowski create a very deep and complicated character. When we first meet the Witcher, we think it’s only monster killer, and he has no feelings. Now, we know that Geralt is more complicated. It's not very easy to convince him about order in the world.

ANITA: Yes.

KAROLINA: Yeah.

ANITA: With his moral codes.

KAROLINA: This specific moment is for Borch when he decided that Geralt will be his friend.

ALYSSA: Yes.

KAROLINA: And I think the food help.

ANITA: Yeah, the food always helps.

KAROLINA: It was always the food.

ALYSSA: Yeah. I mean we get a lot here in terms of exposition and the conversation between Geralt and Borch. As you said Karolina, Geralt's moral shift after the Lesser Evil specifically in the story with Renfri. Borch, over dinner, gets into a conversation with Geralt about chaos and order. Borch says, “The conflict between the forces of Order and the forces of Chaos [...] I imagine that you carry out your mission, defending people from Evil, always and everywhere. Without distinction. You stand on a clearly defined side of the palisade.” Geralt responds saying, “The forces of Order, the forces of Chaos. Awfully high-flown words, Borch. You desperately want to position me on one side of the palisade in a conflict, which is generally thought to be perennial, began long before us and will endure long after we’ve gone. What, in your opinion, defines the border between Chaos and Order?” “A very simple thing,” Borch responds. “That, which represents Chaos as a menace, is the aggressive side. While Order is the side being threatened, in need of protection. In need of a defender.” The whole conversation about this will kind of circle back a number of times for both the Witcher and for Borch, but this is kind of where that theme starts. And being at dinner really gives them the opportunity to get to know each other more.

ANITA: Yeah. Get some chill and take up some heavy conversation with him – heavy topics.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ANITA: Because still conversation about chaos and order is not the daily conversation, I guess.

ALYSSA: As you said, it's very deep.

ANITA: Yes.

ALYSSA: And the two of them definitely get into a lot as they're cracking crayfish and, like, juices are spilling all over their mouth.

ANITA: Yeah. And they're just getting hungry while they’re eating it. And, still, I can tell you about the crayfish, because here in Poland, in some years ago, my parents told me once they were just going to the lake, catch some crayfish, and eat them. Nowadays, it’s more prevalent in restaurants – in some luxury restaurants. Still, it's based on our culture, because we ate a lot of crayfish from the lakes.

ALYSSA: Uh huh. 

ANITA: So, it was very basic food. They were just going to the lake, and catch some crayfish, make it with butter in a big pot and so on. And the crayfish were screaming—

ALYSSA: [Laughing] Oh, no!

KAROLINA: Don’t say that!

ANITA: Yes. My parents told me this, I remember.

ALYSSA: Oh, no.

ANITA: Yes. But still they're very tasty and juicy as Sapkowski wrote. 

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ANITA: So, that's totally true about our cuisine and also based on it. So—

ALYSSA: Yeah. I know that you mentioned that Sapkowski often kind of sneaks in bits of Polish cuisine. So—

ANITA: Still, the cuisine in Witcher is not only about Slavic and Polish cuisine. And it's a very common misconception about that. It also has some connections to Western Europe, like Toussaint, France, Belgium, from Italy as well.

ALYSSA: Uh huh. 

ANITA: And, for example, Skellige is more like Nordlings like the northern parts. So, it's a mix of everything you encounter in Europe through different centuries. Because, still in Europe, for example, we didn't have potatoes.

ALYSSA: Okay.

ANITA: It came to Europe in 14th century if I'm not wrong.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ANITA: Then, for the one century, people thought it's poisonous.

ALYSSA: Oh, okay.

ANITA: That potatoes are poisonous. Some King decided to change it. So, he made up some story about that potato, but I don’t remember. It was an interesting story about potatoes and still it was being thrown in the books, potato as a ingredient, because we have, for example, Mahakam Potato Soup.

KAROLINA: Yes. Soup.

ANITA: But, still in the Europe in 13th century or 12th century, there, there won't be any potatoes in the real life.

KAROLINA: This is not the only example of words that don't fit right. The word ‘king’ in the Middle Ages—

ANITA: Mhmm. It didn't exist.

KAROLINA: Yes, in Europe.

ANITA: Yes. So, it's a mix of centuries, not only about Slavic. And this is a very common misconception about that. And we hear it a lot like, “Oh, Witcher is Slavic.”

KAROLINA: Yeah, exactly.

ANITA: But it's not exactly.

KAROLINA: Yes.

ANITA: It has some features from the Slavic creatures and so on, but still not only.

KAROLINA: Yeah. It’s—Witcher is more like King Arthur. We have some part from Slavic mythology, but not exactly everything. Because, for example, Leshy.

ANITA: Mhmm.

KAROLINA: Leshy in Polish.

ANITA: Yes. So, it’s a creature from the forest, the king of the forest let’s say. Yes.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

KAROLINA: Yeah. And, for example, he can be good, and he can be a bad person.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

KAROLINA: And, in the game, for example, it’s bad. It's not our Polish Slavic Leshy, because, in one interview --

ANITA: Mhmm.

KAROLINA: —Sapkowski said that inspiration Russian poetry, Pushkin. And it's actually Russian creatures --

ANITA: Creature.

KAROLINA: —are different than in Polish part.

ANITA: Mhmm.

KAROLINA: Because we have five, six different leshy. This is wrong. And people said that also Slavic mythology, because it's very different. And we have that little part about legends.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

KAROLINA: This is a great example, in my opinion, that Sapkowski’s book is a mix of Europe.

ANITA: That was basically a mix, not only Polish. But it's easier for us from Poland to imagine it all like Slavic things, fields, all the regions we have here.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ANITA: Because we always hear from friends from the foreign countries, Poland looks like a game. Like, the Witcher game.

KAROLINA: Yeah.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

KAROLINA: I think this is cool, because now people interesting about Slavic culture.

ANITA: Yes.

KAROLINA: They sort of forgot in Poland.

ANITA: Yes.

KAROLINA: And it’s now live again.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

KAROLINA: But it’s not right to said that all this is Slavic mythology.

ANITA: Yes. 

KAROLINA: Yeah. For example, now, we're waiting for the Netflix.

ANITA: Of course.

KAROLINA: And everything about it, I don't see Slavic culture. I don't see Slavic climate. And I think, “Why?” They’re in the books?

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ANITA: It’s—

KAROLINA: I don't want to say that this is a perfect preposition. But, when you want to imagine a Witcher book in the movie, I think the right inspiration is Guy Ritchie, King Arthur. 

ANITA: People shouldn't associate the series, how they should look with the game. It's more like Arthurian legends—

ALYSSA: Okay.

ANITA: —in the Guy Ritchie’s film. Not only about the game, which we seen from the CD Projekt Red. It’s a different, let's say, imagination of the universe.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ANITA: And it shouldn't look exactly like this. So, the associations, of course, they could be here, but still, it's not how it should be depicted entirely. 

ALYSSA: Okay.

ANITA: That's what you want to say.

KAROLINA: Yeah.

ANITA: Karolina.

KAROLINA: Okay.

ALYSSA: So, as you guys have been telling me a little bit about the Slavic origins and the European origins behind Sapkowski’s work and the stories, within the universe, we start to hear a bit about dragons; specifically, Borch starts kind of quizzing Geralt on dragons. And Geralt tells the reader there are four different kinds of dragons. Borch says there's a fifth dragon. Geralt kind of brushes him off saying, “You know, I've heard about those ones, too, Golden dragons. Golden dragons are mythical creatures, fables like the Phoenix let's say. There are no Phoenixes or golden dragons.” Borch responds a bit later, “I think that every myth, every fable must have some roots. Something lies among those roots.” And Geralt says, “It does. Most often a dream, a wish, a desire, a yearning. Faith that there are no limits to possibility. And occasionally chance.” One of the last things that we get in this section with Borch and Geralt—

ANITA: Mhmm.

ALYSSA: —is Geralt’s sterile.

ANITA: Yes.

ALYSSA: He has a very brief conversation with Borch about this. And it actually becomes very crucial, not only to the short story, “The Bounds of Reason,” but also to the promise of the saga as a whole. We'll get into the details why that is. Here, Geralt and Borch are still kind of coming off of their discussion about the possibility of a golden dragon. Geralt is kind of a Debbie Downer about the whole thing. And, you know, he's saying, “Golden dragons and other similar mutants, were they to exist, couldn’t survive. For a very natural limit of possibilities prevents it.” Borch asks, “What is that?” And Geralt says, “Mutants… mutants are sterile, Borch. Only in fables survives what cannot survive in nature. Only myths and fables do not know the limits of possibility.” We learn here for the first time that Geralt is sterile.

ANITA: Yes.

ALYSSA: And it’s a point of contention for Geralt. I think it says his jaw twitched when he was talking about it. So, it is something that he's probably a little self-conscious about—

ANITA: Mhmm.

ALYSSA: —his own legacy or his inability to have children, something along those veins where it kind of gets at him.

ANITA: Yes. And it's kind of a motivation for him through the books, I guess.

KAROLINA: That's a little sneak peek.

ANITA: Yes.

ALYSSA: The end of the second part, it's quite a funny ending. Borch, at the very end of the chapter, asks the innkeeper for a tub. Like, specifically, one that you launder clothes in. And the innkeeper asks, “How big?” And Borch says, “For four people.” Borch, Geralt, and the Zerrikanian girls are implied to have a very fun night in this tub together.

ANITA: Yes. But we now know the detail.

ALYSSA: We do not know the details, but Sapkowski does leave it to our imagination.

ANITA: Yes.

KAROLINA: Exactly.

ANITA: Yes. They probably went to sleep this buffed up after eating so much food. That’s dangerous.

ALYSSA: Maybe. And then just got super wrinkly. Oh, no.

ANITA: Yay.

ALYSSA: Before we continue with the short story, we’re going to hand it over to Lars from WitcherFlix for recent news on the upcoming Netflix show. When we come back, Anita, Karolina, and I will continue our discussion of “The Bounds of Reason.”

“Tidings from Toussaint”

[“Tidings from Toussaint” theme music by Bettina Campomanes]

LARS FROM WITCHERFLIX: Hey, it's Lars from Witcherflix and this is “Tidings from Toussaint.”

These last two weeks were full of interesting interviews from the crew and awesome promo pictures. But let's start this episode with the best news ever.

The Witcher has already been renewed for a second season—even though the first one has not even been released yet. Showrunner Lauren S. Hissrich announced season 2 will also consist of eight episodes and the scripts are already finished. Production will start in early 2020 in London, UK. This is great and shows that Netflix is very confident when it comes to the Witcher show.

As I said, many interviews with actors and producers have been released during the last two weeks. 

In an interview for Netflix Italia, Lauren Hissrich talked about several scenes from the recently released trailer. For example, she talked about the monsters on the show: "It's funny because monsters are huge in The Witcher but it's actually one of the things we were trying to hold out of the teasers and trailers as much as possible because we think there is a great element of surprise for existing fans who don't know what stories and monsters we're playing with. And also there's a couple of new monsters we've came up with, based on a lot of Polish folklore." But she also added: "I don't feel the need to shock the audience, these stories are engaging enough without pushing the shock value for the audience."

Henry Cavill said some interesting things about The Witcher during his interview with news sites wyborcza.pl, teleshop.wp, and Small Screen. First, he explained what makes Geralt and the books so special: "He’s the kind of guy who will kill you if you mess with him. If you mess with those around him, he will kill you. But at the same time, he will put his own life in grave danger to save a complete stranger from harm. And there’s something wonderful about that.”

About the books he said: “I fell in love with those stories,” Cavill said. “They’re not your typical fantasy stories, there’s something tangible about them. Many times after reading or playing the game I couldn’t get them out of my mind. When the opportunity to play Geralt appeared, I couldn’t let it go. When they announced the show, I didn’t know Lauren will be working on it. Every day, I asked my agents to find something out. And then we had a meeting. And I think it went well since I’m now here with you.” 

Henry Cavill was also asked about his favorite Witcher books. He answered: “I wanted Geralt to meet the Rats, but it never happened. There are many more examples of that. And my favorite books? The Last Wish, because it hooked me, broke my heart, put it together, and then broke it again. And Lady of the Lake, because all its events are unbelievable. There is real magic in it.”

Executive producer Tomasz Baginski also talked about Henry Cavill as Geralt of Rivia: "In Hungary, he spent weeks sleeping in a trailer right by the set. He didn’t go back to the hotel in Budapest which saved him an hour every day, but mostly it meant that during the whole time he was in the Witcher world. That doesn’t happen very often. Henry is a working actor, he knows what to do and he delivers fantastic scenes.”

You see, he is more than dedicated to his role. And this is awesome.

Moreover, Tomasz Baginski also talked about the never-ending comparisons to Game of Thrones: “What differentiates us is the presence of magic and humor. There’s not much of it in Game of Thrones. Magic is rather subtle there, while we use it heavily. It’s intertwined with the story and we’re doing our best not to make it into a gritty medieval drama. Sometimes there is humor, there are laughs, and I think it will be very much appreciated by both the book fans and new viewers.”

In other news, many, many more promo pictures have been released during the last fourteen days. Visit breakfastinbeauclair.com to have look. To get you hyped, there were beautiful new pictures showing our main character Geralt, Yennefer and Ciri, but we also got a closer look at the mage Stregobor from the short story "The Lesser Evil", the show–only character, Sir Laszlo, in a beautiful piece of armor, and close–ups of Queen Calanthe of Cintra, and Nilfgaardian–Vicovarian knight, Cahir.

Last but not least, Mahesh Jadu, who will play the infamous mage Vilgefortz of Roggeveen, was confirmed to appear on Episode 7 and 8 of Season 1, right on time for the big battle scenes. In addition there are more interesting confirmations: visual effects supervisor Julian Parry confirmed that the djinn from "The Last Wish" will make his appearance and will say “Hello” to Geralt, Jaskier, and Yennefer. Moreover, Artorius Vigo (Fringilla Vigo's father) will also appear on the show. He will be played by English actor Terence Maynard. Gamers know Artoruis Viigo as the creator of the mystical "Land of a Thousand Fables" from the "Witcher 3" expansion "Blood and Wine.”

Guys, that's it for today. Only one more month to go until we finally have Season 1. Anyway, we'll talk again in the next episode of Breakfast in Beauclair. Until then, thanks again for listening and good luck on the path!

[“Tidings from Toussaint” theme music by Bettina Campomanes]

Discussion

ALYSSA: Hey everyone! Welcome back from the break. I’m here with Anita and Karolina of Witcher Kitchen discussing “The Bounds of Reason'' from Andrzej Sapkowski’s Sword of Destiny. When we left off, Geralt had a new companion, Borch, also known as Three Jackdaws, and his Zerrikanian escort. The four of them had dined at an inn and gotten to know each other before spending a fun night together in a tub.

[Reading] In Part III, Geralt, Borch, and the Zerrikanians are stopped on a bridge in Barefield and asked for letters of safe conduct to pass. Unexpectedly, Dandelion also happens to be stuck outside the bridge as well and tells the company a dragon appeared outside Barefield and began terrorizing the pastures. A local cobbler, Sheepbagger, poisoned the creature and now the young King Niedamir, Lord of Caingorn is after it for reasons of state. Knights, dragon hunters, dwarves, and sorcerers have joined the hunting party, including Geralt’s old love, Yennefer of Vengerberg. Borch bribes the decurion and the company makes their way across the bridge. Geralt, Borch, and the girls have had this fun night. They're trying to kind of continue on their journey. They run into Dandelion, of all people, just stuck and unable to cross this bridge in Barefield on the Braa.

ANITA: Mhmm.

ALYSSA: Every time we see Dandelion, we get a fun little description of him. Geralt knew that bonnet and that feather, which were famed from the Buina to the Yaruga, known in manor houses, fortresses, inns, taverns, and whorehouses. Particularly whorehouses. Dandelion asks the Witcher why he's there. And the Witcher responds that he's traveling with Borch. Dandelion says, “Oh, you're not in pursuit of the dragon.” So, Dandelion, after a bit of fuss, tells the Witcher and his companions a dragon was poisoned by a cobbler named Sheepbagger outside Barefield. But, now, there's a King of Caingorn, who now wants the dragon for reasons of state. This young king, Niedamir took a nearby town, Malleore, by force. The people of Malleore basically said, “Oh, you can't be our king, unless you have a dragon.” And no one had seen a dragon in years. So, they thought they were safe. But then news about the Barefield dragon got out, and Niedamir was like, “Well, if I capture this dragon and present it to them, they have no choice but to revere me.” So, it's a little bit convoluted. So, now, this young king is in pursuit of this dragon,

KAROLINA: I think this part is also a good part for Dandelion, in Polish, Jaskier, because I think he’s the spirit of this book.

ALYSSA: Yes.

ANITA: He’s a comic relief.

KAROLINA: Yeah. In Polish, there are so many memes about him and his relations with Geralt.

ANITA: Yes. 

ALYSSA: Oh, really?

KAROLINA: Yeah. And Dandelion comes, you know, it would be a fun part of book.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ANITA: It’s always some comic relief.

ALYSSA: Anita and Karolina, you guys both also had a note about dragon motifs in the Witcher.

KAROLINA: Yes.

ANITA: Yes. So, we have a next connection to the Polish legend, which is about Wawel dragon, Smok Wawelski in Kraków. We have a cave with it. We have a statue there.

KAROLINA: A castle.

ANITA: Yeah. We have a castle. You can visit all those things here. We, later in the story, know how they cope with the dragon.

KAROLINA: Yes.

ANITA: And it's a connection to the legend, because we had a shoemaker, and he stuffed the sheep with sulfur, and fed it to the dragon. And the dragon ate it. Then he just felt that something is burning him from the inside. So, he drank a lot of water from the river, and he burst.

ALYSSA: Oh.

ANITA: Yes. So, it's a quite funny legend, but we see a connection here about stuffing the sheep and the one method to kill the dragon by Sheepbagger.

KAROLINA: In Polish, Kozojed.

ANITA: I'm not sure why they translated it that way. But anyway.

ALYSSA: Does it mean something different in Polish? Or is it kind of a weird literal translation?

KAROLINA: We don't know.

ALYSSA: Okay.

ANITA: It’s something about the goat. So, eating goat. I don't know why it’s like that. But, anyways, it’s a connection to the legend of Smok Wawelski.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ANITA: And stuffing sheep with sulfur to kill the dragon.

KAROLINA: Yeah, exactly.

ANITA: Yes.

KAROLINA: In the text, this person, because I read in Polish, talking very much about killing him again with the same method. And someone said that he must stop talking about this method of killing dragon, because maybe he become a legend.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ANITA: Yes.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

KAROLINA: And, so, that’s the legend about Wawel dragon.

ANITA: Yes.

ALYSSA: I think, as Sapkowski does, we can see a translation and a bastardization of an existing legend or story or folklore here.

ANITA: So, maybe go back to the story.

ALYSSA: Okay.

KAROLINA: Sorry.

ANITA: Because we could talk for hours.

ALYSSA: I mean I don't mind. King Niedamir wants to get this dragon. But, obviously, he's not going to do it himself.

ANITA: Coward.

ALYSSA: Yeah. He's not rushing to stick himself into armor with, like, his own sword and try to kill this himself. He basically sends out riders with safe conduct throughout the countryside. And they recruit a bunch of dragon hunters. So, Dandelion tells Geralt that there's a few people, the first being, Eyck of Denesle, who's apparently the super religious, super pious knight whose goal is to just slaughter everything, but, like, with virtue and with religion. So, he seems a little holier than thou. Geralt admits that he's very good, but that he also doesn't take money for it. Geralt says like, “He spoils my business, the swine.” There's also The Crinfrid Reavers, who are a trio of brothers. And they've wiped out the dracolizards and forktails in Redania along with four different dragons. There's six dwarves under the command of Yarpen Zigrin, a dwarf. This decurion steps in who they've been talking literally over as he's been kind of making a crude drawing of a woman in the sand. And he says, you know, “A dragon is a magical creature. If there's anyone who can take care of a magical creature, it's a sorcerer. And it's going to be the sorceress that rode through yesterday.” The decurion doesn't remember who the sorceress is. But he says that she had black hair and a black horse. So, they're trying to figure out who it is. Dun-dun-dun. The Zerrikanians come. Borch had sent them off earlier in the part to get some beer for them. They come back with a rider on a large warhorse. The rider introduces himself as Dorregaray, who's a sorcerer. Dorregaray identifies the sorceress with black hair and a black horse as Yennefer. And Geralt twitches. But, at the mention of her, he tries to bribe this decurion with 200 lintars. And Borch butters him up, and then, eventually, bribes him with 500 lintars. And they go across the bridge.

[Reading] In Part IV, Geralt, Borch, and Dandelion chatter on the campfire with other members of the hunting party; specifically, The Reavers, The Dwarves and, eventually, Yennefer. The Reavers, the three brothers, Boholt, Gar, and Kennet, who is also known as Beanpole, which is a bit of a funny nickname. And then we also hear from Yarpen Zigrin and  his dwarves. They tell us about what it's been like riding with King Niedamir and this agreement they have to split up the spoils from the dragon. Whoever kills the dragon gets half of the share. Niedamir gets a quarter no matter what. The last quarter is divided amongst everyone else who helped.

ALYSSA: So, that's supposedly the agreement they had. And they're just kind of filling Geralt in on what the dynamic has been between the king of the sorcerers and the dragon hunters themselves. Eventually, Yennefer arrives and starts conversation. And it's very clear that all of them have animosity toward Yennefer. They're very aggressive toward her really.

ANITA: Because they're afraid. They're afraid of her skills.

ALYSSA: Yeah. I mean eventually it angers her enough that she walks away. And Geralt disappears and follows her, which is when we get to Part V. Geralt follows Yennefer away from the camp for a private word. We get so much here in their dialogue and then also in the undertones of what they're saying to each other. You know, it starts off. Geralt tries to make some small talk and he just says, “You haven't changed at all.’ Yennefer sneers and says, “Neither have you. And, in both cases, it is equally normal. Or, if you prefer, equally abnormal. In any case, the mention of it, though it may not be a bad way to begin the conversation, is meaningless. Am I right?” She has no patience for Geralt.

ANITA: As always.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

KAROLINA: She’s that kind of woman.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ANITA: Wonderful woman. Yes.

KAROLINA: I like her!

ALYSSA: We get this one line too that reappears on the chapter. You know what Sapkowski likes to do. He repeats direct dialogue and themes. Between Geralt and Yennefer this phrase, “In spite of everything,” comes up throughout the chapter. Specifically, Yen gets angry at Geralt. Like, “Why did you follow me? Why did you decide to join this hunting party?” And she says, “Men like to meet their former lovers, like to relive memories. They like to imagine that erstwhile erotic ecstasies give them some kind of perpetual ownership of their partner. It enhances their self-importance. You are no exception. In spite of everything.” And she continues by saying, “Those four years left their mark, Geralt. I’m not – I’m over it now, which is the only reason why I didn’t spit in your eyes during today’s encounter. But don’t let my civility deceive you.” The Witcher tries to cut in saying, “Yennefer…” But she cuts him off, “Be quiet! I gave you more than I’ve ever given any other man, you scoundrel. I don’t know, myself, why I gave it to you. And you… Oh no, my dear. I’m not a slut or an elf-woman met by chance in the forest, who can be discarded in the morning, walked out on without being woken, with a posy of violets left on the table. Who can be made a mockery of. Beware! Utter a single word and you will regret it. We’ve met, that’s too bad. But we shall not make a spectacle of ourselves for anybody. We shall save face. We’ll pretend to be good friends. But don’t be mistaken, Geralt. There is nothing between us now. Nothing, understood? And be glad of it, because it means I have now abandoned the plans which, until recently, I still harbored regarding you. But that in no way means I’ve forgiven you. I shall never forgive you, Witcher. Never.” Hmm. It's a lot. And it's very, very tense. They both seem to have a lot of emotion around the ending of their relationship.

ANITA: Yes.

KAROLINA: Yeah.

ANITA: And they have reasons for it. Definitely.

KAROLINA: Yeah. And I think Yennefer has a very strong character. But, inside, she's truly a very soft woman who cares about family. Actually, I can tell you why the situation is right in the style.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

KAROLINA: Because we have some information from interview with Andrzej Sapkowski. And Anita will tell you perfectly from information I prepare.

ANITA: We can add the fun fact that Yennefer was supposed to appear only once. And Sapkowski didn't really plan to use her in the next books at the beginning at least. However, as he stated in one of the interviews, she sticks to his pen, let's say. She was very interesting for him as a character.

KAROLINA: And we have also some information about this too. And I think it's very valid logic. And I understand more this relationship and more understand Yennefer. And I hope people have a new light about this character.

ANITA: Yes.

KAROLINA: Because so many people, “Oh, I don't like Yennefer. She's a the bitch.”

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ANITA: Exactly. Yes.

KAROLINA: She’s a bitch. Yeah. And I think she’s a strong character with family problems.

ANITA: Yes.

KAROLINA: And, so, now, Anita will tell you more about this.

ANITA: Yes. I will just read the direct translation from the interview. When Andrzej Sapkowski was asked, “Please tell me why it's such an important issue a story and psychological reasons for you that Geralt and Yennefer couldn't have children.” And he replies, “I could have let it go. Like, the character of Yennefer. But somehow it came out at some point. In the first story, Yennefer takes participation in the hunt for the dragon. So, I needed some reason for which she’s claiming to be someone better, even an elite. Like some who were more important than common folks.”

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ANITA: “And I was looking for a simple, legible, and the real cause of the conflict between her and Geralt. I didn't have much time for the decision, because stories are not written for years like books,” he says. So, the introduction of the sorceress woman was aimed at breaking or bending the regular convention the reader always has. A woman appears and the reader raised on the classic patterns is convinced that she will become a reward for a warrior, for someone who will defeat the dragon. And, suddenly, it turns out that the Yennefer is not going to be anyone's reward—

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ANITA: —but a warrior herself. And, from this beginning, the fate of the relationship between Geralt and Yennefer just emerged. And although the story didn't have to continue from the initial story.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ANITA: And Sapkowski didn't know if he would ever use it again, this character of Yennefer, or what she – do what she had to do in this story, and then will just disappear from the rest of the saga. And some heroes, however, created as one-time episode, they stick to the writers pen—

KAROLINA: Yeah.

ANITA: —as he mentioned. And he wants to spend some time with them. In short, because they're just interesting. And Yennefer and Geralt, in this case, are symbolic contrast. Like black and white, the yin and yang—

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ANITA: —for example. And there’s some kind of visualization of opposites to help the reader understanding this conflict, which is full of violent love. Basically, that.

KAROLINA: Yeah.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

KAROLINA: Andrzej Sapkowski, he always mentions, “A woman is always a price for the man.” And, now, he creates a very strong character like Yennefer.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ANITA: And no one expects this.

KAROLINA: Yeah.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

KAROLINA: Although they are strong character, strong woman, they have a very simple problem like --

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

KAROLINA: —for Yennefer.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

KAROLINA: It’s that she can’t – she can’t have a child. Yes.

ANITA: Yes. She can’t have. So, it's a really simple problem, let's say. Like normal common problem.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ANITA: But, for her, it’s like disaster, let's say. And it's her reason to go further—

ALYSSA: Right.

ANITA: —and to make some things. 

KAROLINA: I think that's interesting, because, of course, in the first, she’s not a very charming person.

ANITA: Yes, not very charming at first glance let’s say.

KAROLINA: But I think her point of view about family and people she loves – yeah.

ANITA: Yes. She's just harsh, not bad person.

KAROLINA: Yeah.

ANITA: And people always have some misconception about that. I think it's very harmful for this character.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ANITA: Her reasons and her beliefs and everything she does is based on a very good cause.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

KAROLINA: Yes. And, now, in this part, we know now thanks to Sapkowski interview that this relationship is not only some relationship in Geralt’s life or Yennefer’s life. From the beginning to the end, they create a couple, a family—

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

KAROLINA: —with problems, of course.

ANITA: Yes.

KAROLINA: But it’s a family. In the next books, we know this is not a random reason. Yes.

ALYSSA: Yes, it's really wonderful to have additional insight from the author. So, thank you so much for bringing that.

ANITA: You’re welcome.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ANITA: We're happy we could add it to the story.

ALYSSA: Yeah. I think you're both very correct. You know, Yennefer and Geralt are definitely two sides of the same coin. They do share a lot of the same problems.

ANITA: Yes.

ALYSSA: Things like infertility. There's a lot about, you know, the perception of them in the rest of society. So, for Geralt, this is about witchers as a whole, but, for Yennefer, it really is her; her personality, how she comes across, and her status as a sorceress evokes a lot of animosity from The Reavers, from The Dwarves.

ANITA: Yes. So, she's a woman. She's a sorcerer.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ANITA: It’s, you know, the cause of the problems.

ALYSSA: Yeah. Yeah. And like their professions as the Witcher and a sorceress definitely isolates them.

ANITA: Yes.

ALYSSA: They’re constantly around people, but they always feel, I think, a sense of isolation from everyone else.

ANITA: Yes.

ALYSSA: So, I think it's very interesting to see kind of how much tension their relationship has and how much, you know, they hurt each other, but care about each other.

KAROLINA: Yeah.

ANITA: Yes, at the same time.

ALYSSA: Yeah. You know, we'll learn a lot more about Geralt and Yennefer's relationship as the rest of the short story goes on and as the saga as a whole moves on.

ALYSSA: Before we get to the hunt for the dragon, we are going to put a pause on this short story and this episode—so, that’s it for our show today! I’d like to thank Anita and Karolina for joining us for this discussion and thank you to our hanza for listening. In the meantime, you can find Anita and Karolina at their projects, Witcher Kitchen and Nerds Kitchen, in which they create cuisine inspired by the Witcher Universe and various virtual worlds. Check out witcherkitchen.com and nerdskitchen.pl or find them on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube. (Their YouTube is incredible. Look up Nerds Kitchen!) Next episode, when we return, Anita, Karolina, and I will continue our discussion of “The Bounds of Reason.”

Outro & CREDITS

[Breakfast in Beauclair theme music by MojoFilter Media]

ALYSSA: Thanks for joining us at the breakfast table! For show notes, transcripts of each episode, and a complete list of our social platforms and listening services, head over to breakfastinbeauclair.com.

Breakfast in Beauclair is created by Alyssa from GoodMorhen. It’s hosted by Alyssa with the “Tidings from Toussaint” News Segment by Lars from WitcherFlix. The show is edited by Alyssa with the Breakfast in Beauclair theme by MojoFilter Media and the “Tidings from Toussaint” theme by Bettina Campomanes.

Breakfast in Beauclair is produced by Alyssa in New York City with Luis of Kovir, The Owner of The Churlish Porpoise, Coolguyhenry, Arix the Godling, Katie (The Redhead of Toussaint), Jacob, Mahakam Elder Joe, Julie, Sylvia of Skellige, and Eugene aka “Pony of Coins.”

Special thanks to Anita and Karolina for joining us for this episode and our international hanza for their support.

Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo 
Editor: Krizia Casil

 

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