Ep. 7 — "The Voice of Reason" with Jess and Crisanto

Jess & Crisanto join Alyssa from GoodMorhen to discuss the framing narrative from Andrzej Sapkowski’s The Last Wish, “The Voice of Reason.” Very important bits include: remembrance of the victims of Mother Nenneke’s sick burns in this most holy of episodes and analyzation of Geralt’s inner world, moral compass, and witcher’s code.

This episode is available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, and Stitcher.

Transcript

Cold Open

CRISANTO: [With a questionable Bernie Sanders impression] She smells like lilac and gooseberries!

JESS: Oh, my god.

Introduction

[Breakfast in Beauclair theme music by MojoFilter Media]

ALYSSA: Welcome to Breakfast in Beauclair, a global Witcher Podcast. My name is Alyssa from GoodMorhen, and I’ll be your host as you, I, and our international hanza accompany Geralt of Rivia and his destiny, Cirilla of Cintra, across The Continent.

[Italy & Lucca Comics & Games 2019]

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[Episode Details]

As for this episode, our friends Jess and Crisanto return to discuss the framing narrative from Andrzej Sapkowski’s The Last Wish, “The Voice of Reason.” Join us as we analyze Geralt’s inner world, morals, and Witcher’s code and—in this most holy of episodes—we remember the victims of Mother Nenneke’s sick burns.

During the mid-episode break, Lars from Witcherflix returns with lots of exciting updates on the Netflix show following last week’s trip to Italy’s Lucca Comics and Games festival.

Without further ado, let’s get to this episode’s short story, “The Voice of Reason.”

Discussion

[Breakfast in Beauclair stinger by MojoFilter Media]

ALYSSA: Welcome to this episode of Breakfast in Beauclair. My name is Alyssa from GoodMorhen, and I'm excited to have my friends Jess and Crisanto back to discuss The Voice of Reason, the framing short story narrative in Andrezj Sapkowski’s The Last Wish. This is a story that introduces all the others throughout the completion and also explores Geralt's morality and inner conflicts.

JESS: Hi guys! We are smiling like goons over here. I’m actually, like, dancing in my seat, like, wiggling just, like, “So, excited to be back.”

ALYSSA: So, Jess and Crisanto, this is your first dive into the Witcher saga. What did you guys think of it now that we're finally done with the book?

JESS: So, last week, we were discussing "The Last Wish." We read this chapter kind of in a vacuum. And we want to go back and read the whole entire thing to get into it, because we really liked it. And it totally holds up. I'm really enjoying the series so far. I'm gonna continue. So, I'll be reading along with the Sword of Destiny. And I listened to, like, all the episodes of the podcast as they come out. So—

ALYSSA: Yeah, you do.

JESS: I'm a fan of the podcast. I'm a fan of the books, reading The Voice of Reason, and just the whole book together. I think I have a better sense of who Geralt is as a person, as a character knowing that this is a very actiony book. I was surprised to see how the character studies that are worked into this were pretty strong. A lot of good stuff there.

CRISANTO: It's good following Geralt's journey in the Witcher, because it's not a massive world with, you know, a 200 character cast.

ALYSSA: Not yet.

CRISANTO: Oh, damn. Ooh. So, we're still in the infancy. But I do like following Geralt along his journey, but there are moments of farce and ridiculousness. And it's good seeing that not all of it is extremely grave circumstances. Geralt, you know runs into bouts of humor. You know, he has a best friend who's a bard, who's basically almost his polar opposite. There's a fierce romance. There's action, drama.There's racism. Oh, my god.

JESS: Oh, damn.

CRISANTO: And I do appreciate the Voice of Reason and how it really psychoanalyzes Geralt. You know, he's not just this Superman figure.

ALYSSA: That's kind of funny considering he's played by Henry Cavill.

JESS: Hey.

CRISANTO: Hey. But he’s a, he's a soft boy at heart.

ALYSSA: Yes. So, this just gives us, as Crisanto and Jess both alluded to, the opportunity to actually delve into who Geralt is as a person. The Voice of Reason, if you're listening along with us rather than reading the books, it's interspersed throughout each of the chapters as an interlude between each short story. And then it has its own story within it, which we'll talk about today. But the events of the Voice of Reason chronologically happen after each of the short stories. So, Geralt's, as he's kind of going through the Voice of Reason, is reminiscing on the previous events of his life, which are the short stories. Two different kinds of characters within this framing narrative. So, Part I starts with a two-page opening. An unnamed woman wakes and seduces the Witcher in the night.

JESS: ‘Ey.

CRISANTO: ‘Ey.

JESS: Ooh. And then it says something about like, “She wakes him up with her boobies.” Like—

ALYSSA: Yeah.

JESS: Like, she leans over him and just, like, kind of like wiggles.

ALYSSA: It sounds like she just kind of grazes her nipples over his eyeballs.

JESS: Yes. Oh, my god. So, when I read that, I was like, “Oh, it's like that. Okay.”

CRISANTO: What an opening.

ALYSSA: So, there was actually something very funny that went viral – well, "viral,” like, within the Witcher community. I think I came across it on Twitter, but it was from Reddit. And it was some poor person who jumped into one of the Witcher subreddits. They were like, “Can I watch this with my parents? Is it like Game of Thrones where there's a lot of sex, a lot of violence?” And then there was a second screenshot with, like, an edit line. And he was just like, “Okay, I get it.” And my—I think my response to that was to just like reference book one page one.

JESS: Yes. Literally. Like, the very first story, this is what you get. And we're like, “Okay. We have boobies. We're having boobies here.” What do you guys think was the purpose of having this as the very first story? So, what were your kind of first reactions when you're reading this? And what is Sapkowski trying to show? Like, what was the purpose? Personally, I thought that maybe he was just trying to establish Geralt as like this James Bond figure. Like, he's like this action guy who always gets the girl. And he has this, you know, sexual prowess. What do you think, Crisanto?

CRISANTO: I think Henry Cavill is gonna be a very happy man.

JESS: That's quite the opener.

CRISANTO: I think this milkshake was meant to bring all the boys to the yard. I mean, to be perfectly honest, I think it's compelling. An intro to the story should have a hook.

JESS: So, what you're trying to say is, like, this is trying to get, like, the kids interested in reading.

CRISANTO: [Laughing] Actually, yeah. But I mean it, I mean not to take away from its appeal. It's written very beautifully. Like, can I read the passage?

ALYSSA: Yeah, of course.

CRISANTO: Like the book literally opens up:

[Reading] “She entered very carefully, moving silently, floating through the chamber like a phantom; the only sound was that of her mantle brushing her naked skin. Yet this faint sound was enough to wake the witcher—or maybe it only tore him from the half-slumber in which he rocked monotonously, as though traveling through fathomless depths, suspended between the sea bed and its calm surface amidst gently undulating strands of seaweed.”

CRISANTO: I mean, in essence, yeah, he’s getting laid. But—

JESS: It's written so nicely.

CRISANTO: It's – yes. It’s written beautiful. It's, it's an allegory for floating between the seas. Like, how – that's, that's actually very beautiful establishing.

ALYSSA: In this first two-page opener, she's unnamed, The Witcher is unnamed. And he's only mentioned once as being the Witcher. The rest of the – of that page, he's only referred to as he. You're kind of thrown into this world without having any understanding of what's going on or any context. And then you just get this immediate sex scene. And then you go into the Witcher, which is a story with Foltest and the Striga.

CRISANTO: Why do you, why do you think Sapkowski started the book this way?

ALYSSA: It does, in some way, lend itself to the plot, ultimately. As we'll learn, it does have a sense of plot significance. But, in the context of the chapter that follows it, I don't know if it makes a ton of sense.

CRISANTO: Yeah.

ALYSSA: Like, it's immediately followed by “The Witcher” in which, you know, Geralt immediately comes in and slaughters a bunch of people and then in, like, a tavern. So, in that sense, it doesn't really make a lot of sense.

JESS: It’s just for funsies.

CRISANTO: It's totally for the kids.

ALYSSA: I remember the first time that I read it, I was like, “Ah, okay.”

JESS: It's like that. Yeah.

CRISANTO: Yeah. Yeah.

ALYSSA: I think I had the same reaction that you guys did the very first time I read it.

CRISANTO: I think that proves that it's, it's actually quite effective. I mean, right? 

JESS: Yeah. Yeah. 

ALYSSA: Yeah. So, in Part II:

[Reading] Nenneke, the High Priestess of the temple of Melitele, wakes the witcher and the novice from Part I, Iola. In this part, we learn that this framing narrative takes place immediately after the events of “The Witcher” and Geralt is specifically to have this neck cared for and healed after the striga’s attack. Nenneke tries to talk Geralt into a trance to "see into the vortex of power surrounding him" and they've a brief debate regarding their views on religion and faith.

ALYSSA: To start off, this ends up, ultimately, being the introduction for “A Grain of Truth,” the story with Nivellen and the vampire, Vereena. We learn in it that Nenneke has known Geralt since he was a child. But, yeah, we start to get a lot more world-building in this section. So, we learn quite a bit about the cults of Melitele itself as well as Geralt's own morality when it comes to faith and belief and how it contrasts with the woman, who is the High Priestess of the temple.

JESS: Obviously, being the High Priestess, she's all in for this deity. Geralt is just totally the opposite. We're kind of seeing the contrast between her faith and his lack of faith.

CRISANTO: Nenneke, as like a matriarch for the temple, just wants to heal him. She senses something's very wrong with him. She tries to sell him on the concept of a trance. You know, she's using Iola as a medium, first, through physical contact and then spiritual. She wants to heal whatever is bothering Geralt. Geralt, being the pragmatist, the stoic, he doesn't buy it. There's a really – there's a really good passage here where you see the clash of beliefs where Geralt don't need no education. But Nenneke says, “Geralt, you’re sick.” He goes, “Injured, you mean.” “I know what I mean,” Nenneke says. “There's something not quite right with you. I can sense that.” Geralt says, “Why the metaphysics? I'll confide in you. I'll get a keg of beer so my throat doesn't dry up, and we could start today. But I feel I'll bore you because you won't find any nooses or vortexes here. Just ordinary witcher's tales.” So, yeah, he doesn't really buy into the religion. He doesn't buy into therapy, basically. He's a man of cold, hard logic, progressing forward through action, and not looking behind you.

ALYSSA: Yeah. And then he tells her:

[Reading] “Don't you think that my lack of faith makes such a trance pointless?” And she responds, “No, I don't. And do you know why? No.” The narrator says, “Nenneke leaned over and looked him in the eyes with a strange smile on her pale lips because it would be the first proof I've ever heard of that a lack of faith has any kind of power at all.”

CRISANTO: The check. Uh! 

ALYSSA: She's so badass. 

JESS: Yeah.

ALYSSA: Like, she is such an awesome ass character. And we're gonna get into the details of why her character almost evokes Calanthe from Episode 4 despite or because of her place at the top of this religious hierarchy. She's just completely, like, what's the word I'm looking for?

JESS: She's very competent?

ALYSSA: No, she can be irreverent. 

JESS: Oh, yeah.

CRISANTO: Irreverent. 

ALYSSA: Like, she's just like, “You're a little shit.” She actually says that—

JESS: Yes. Yes.

ALYSSA: —at some in the chapter. She's like, “Stop being a little shit.”

JESS: Yes.

ALYSSA: It's just really funny. Kind of the contrast between I guess her position and her faith versus how she carries herself honestly.

JESS: Mhmm. She's pretty much saying, “It doesn't matter if you don't believe in this trance. I know this trance is gonna work.”

CRISANTO: You really see where their belief structures lie because she is the matriarch of this establishment. She, she believes in community. She believes in, you know, lending yourself to a higher power, service. While Geralt, it seems like he only believes in himself and his strength.

JESS: Yeah. It seems, for each person, they each believe what they want to believe because, whatever they're doing, it's working for them. Nenneke, whatever she's doing, you know, healing people and birthing babies, you know --

CRISANTO: Yeah.

JESS: —what I'm doing is working. And Geralt is saying to her, “Well, what I'm doing is working too.” So, you've kind of got the clash of two people. Like, we both have an idea of what we believe or don't believe. So, you do you and me do me. But I think Nenneke is more of, “No, I don't want you to do you. I want you to do what I'm doing.”

ALYSSA: As, as most mothers would also say. She says repeatedly throughout this chapter, like, “I'm not your goddamn mother.” It's just very funny. We learn quite a bit about one of the religions on the continent, a religious cult for Melitele. The Cult of Melitele was one of the oldest and, in its day, one of the most widespread cults from time immemorial. Practically, every pre-human race and every primordial nomadic human tribe honored a goddess of harvest and fertility, a guardian of farmers and gardeners, a patroness of love and marriage. Many of these religions merged into the Cult of Melitele. And this excerpt kind of continues. Geralt references Dandelion. The reason why Melitele does so well and why she doesn't have to be worried about her religious congregation is because women will continue to give birth and they'll continue to want to yell at somebody.

JESS: It’s so good.

ALYSSA: And it's gonna happen till the end of time. So, they might as well yell to Melitele.

JESS: There you go.

ALYSSA: And that's how religions are made.

CRISANTO: I love how Sapkowski opens chapter up with this establishment, because it's, it's not too far different from the religions of today, whether it's Pagan or the monotheistic ones. There are temple. There are places of worship.

JESS: Actually, when you were kind of reading the passage, I was thinking, like, I feel like I've heard this conversation before. When I was in college, like, I got involved with a Christian group and something very common was like, “You look like you're having a bad day. Do you want to go to a prayer group with me?” And we’d be like, “Oh, okay.” You hear a lot of, like, the similar things when you're in that kind of Christian group. Like, oh, I have a friend. He's kind of drifting off. And he doesn't seem right. Like, we should pray for him or we should invite him to a small group Bible study or whatever.

ALYSSA: I think it's really interesting to hear about people's relationship with religion and with faith, you know, whether that's, as you said, denominational, non-denominational. It's very interesting to see, like, what people will hold on to, I guess. Like, I'm personally no longer religious. And, as I said, I went to Catholic school from the time I was five until the time I was about 14. I'm no longer really practicing. But, in times where I just don't really know what to do or if I'm in a serious situation, in an extreme case, I will just turn to prayer, because I've no idea what else to do.

JESS: Me too. Like, if I'm having some type of anxiety over something, I'll say a little prayer. And I'm like, “I don't know if this prayer is gonna work. But, by doing it, you know, it's not gonna hurt the situation. And it could even help the situation. I don't know if there's a God up there. But you know, may as well just kind of throw that out there.” Yeah. That's almost kind of what Nenneke and Geralt were discussing. You don't have to believe in it for it to be effective. So, just going back to what we were talking about before.

CRISANTO: But I do agree. When, when times are rough, I think prayer in itself—this is like the cold, dry logic behind it. But I think it contextualizes your problems. It zooms you out and allows you to look at your life, like, differently.

JESS: Although there is Christianity in Poland where the author is from, it seems like he's drawing from some type of pre-Christian religion.

CRISANTO: Mhmm.

JESS: Just the fact that it's, you know, a woman-centered temple. That's – I mean that is something altogether, because Christianity is heavily patriarchal.

CRISANTO: Mhmm.

JESS: To me, like reading this, it's almost like reading like a Greek myth or something—

CRISANTO: Mhmm.

JESS: just like a different pre-Christian religion.

CRISANTO: Nenneke is just imagining him try it.

JESS: Yeah. Yeah. I mean—

CRISANTO: Try it. Just, just try this therapy. Just, you know, give it a chance, and Geralt just won't buckle.

JESS: Yeah. So, it isn't even necessarily a religious thing. Like, someone could be like, “Hey, I think you should go to therapy. You should see someone, a counselor or someone.” He’s like, “No, no, no, no. I’m – I'm not about that.”

CRISANTO: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

ALYSSA: I mean, it's definitely the kind of thing, where when you look at things like therapy or any kind of self help, it really does come down to that person actually wanting it for themselves.

JESS: Yes.

ALYSSA: You know, you can't really force someone to do anything like that. They have to be in a place of acceptance.

CRISANTO: Unless you're Nenneke.

JESS: That's – yeah. That's interesting. How, in certain contexts, even if you don't believe in it, it'll still work. Like, if you don't believe in Western medicine, but here I’ll give you antibiotics, it will still work.

CRISANTO: And that raises an interesting question. Like, I don't think any of these belief structures are fundamentally wrong, unless they tell you to hurt someone. It's interesting seeing the battle of wits here. Like, it makes you wonder what Geralt's pushback is. You know, what's wrong with him? What's Nenneke’s motivation? You know, does she actually have powers? Is she connected to a higher being like, legitimately? We're learning more about them.

ALYSSA: No, I think you got a good point, in that, it doesn't necessarily seem like they have completely different values. 

CRISANTO: Mhmm.

ALYSSA: They definitely have different views, especially when it comes to religion and faith. But some of their core values of community self, just very generic things, aren't different on a very fundamental level. Just their expression of them is polarizing.

CRISANTO: Mhmm.

ALYSSA: [Reading] In Part III, the temple is visited by knights from the Order of the White Rose, Falwick and Tailles, who are here specifically to remove Geralt from Ellander. They argue with Nenneke and Geralt and the section ends coldly between the Order, the witcher, and the priestess.

JESS: So, a quick rundown, Falwick is kind of like the good cop, and Tailles is kind of like the bad cop.

ALYSSA: Yeah. It's a little – it's a little strange. It's almost like Men in Black a little bit, but not --

JESS: Yeah. It’s kind of like a very level-headed guy who's Falwick. And then, Tailles, he’s kind of this youthfully, enthusiastic guy who's like rearing to go.

ALYSSA: Yeah. But they're both horribly, horribly cold and kind of evil. These two men from the Order of the White Rose, it says that they're part of this duke/prince. They keep kind of arguing over world titles. But they're here supposedly representing him in order to get the witcher out.

JESS: So, pretty much what happens is, like, the two guys, the two knights are, like, “Get out of here.” And they're like, “You can’t tell them what to do.”

ALYSSA: Yeah. It's almost like they will have their own jurisdiction within the temple. And Nenneke just rails on them there. They’re—this is where we really get her and all of her irreverent splendor. She pulls out this little vial or container from her pouch. And she says, “I really don't know what will happen if I smash this container at your feet, Tailles. Maybe your lungs will burst. Maybe you’ll grow fur. Or maybe both, who knows? Only merciful Melitele.”

JESS: The scare tactics.

ALYSSA: And he responds, “Don't you dare threaten me with your spells priestess. Our soldiers—” And she cuts him off saying, “If any one of your soldiers touches one of Melitele’s priestesses, they will hang, before dusk, along the road to town. And they know that very well. As do you, Tailles, so stop acting like a fool. I delivered you, you shitty brat, and I pity your mother but don’t tempt fate. And don’t force me to teach you manners!”

JESS: Fire. 

ALYSSA: Ugh.

JESS: Yeah, I just, I just love the last two lines and, especially, “I delivered you, you shitty brat, and I pity your mother, don't tempt fate.” So, pretty much like she's, like, flexing on him.

ALYSSA: Oh.

JESS: So, she's now saying like, “If it weren't for me, you wouldn't be here. So, son, just don't.”

CRISANTO: What a flex! I've never heard that flex before. “I delivered you.” That's, that's something you would expect only a mailman would say.

JESS: Yeah. And it's such a good illustration of who she is in this community. So, aside from it being like a really good flex and saying like, “Respect your elders,” it's also asserting her importance in the community. You know she delivers baby. She brings life into the world. If it weren't for this temple, where would your mothers, and your sons, and your daughters be? So, narratively, I think it's kind of showing the importance of the temple locally in the community and on top of being just kind of like you better recognize.

CRISANTO: And she doesn't have to use violence. So, she's smart enough to use—

ALYSSA: Pure force? 

CRISANTO: —pure burns.

JESS: Pure burns. Yeah.

CRISANTO: Yeah, insane burns.

ALYSSA: I mean, she says—at the very end, there's this passage here saying:

[Reading] “Did you hear, boys? The witcher will remain here for three days because that’s his fancy. And I, priestess of Great Melitele, will for those three days be his host, for that is my fancy.”

ALYSSA: And she, she answers burn by saying:

[Reading] “Tell that to Hereward. No, not Hereward. Tell that to his wife, the noble Ermellia, adding that if she wants to continue receiving an uninterrupted supply of aphrodisiacs from my pharmacy, she’d better calm her duke down. Let her curb his humors and whims, which look ever more like symptoms of idiocy.”

JESS: Yeah. Nenneke has the dirt. Like, she knows, like, what aphrodisiacs, like, people are ordering. Like, because she's the one dishing it out. She's trying to say like, “You highborns want to pooh-pooh this priestess over here, yet who's coming knocking on my door? It's you guys.”

CRISANTO: It's a HIPAA violation, isn't it?

ALYSSA: Facts.

CRISANTO: Either way your wife uses these.

JESS: I don't know the exact page, but I know there's a point, where Tailles who's kind of like the hothead, he throws down his gauntlet. So, throwing down the gauntlet literally means like taking off your metal glove, which is the gauntlet, and throwing it down at the foot of the person that you want to challenge. So, he's saying, “I'm challenging you witcher. Like, get out of here. Like, let's fight this out.” And Nenneke was like, “Pick that up, you fool.” Like, “Put that away. This is my jurisdiction.”

ALYSSA: I'm pretty sure she says something that amounts to, like, don't litter. It undermines him so much.

JESS: Yeah.

ALYSSA: Because he's trying to have this really big, bold theatrical power move, and she's like, “Babe.”

JESS: Yes.

ALYSSA: What? Why?

JESS: So, aside from being sassy, she's kind of asserting that the rules of society out there are different.

ALYSSA: As I said, they've come here in order to kick Geralt out. And then Geralt says:

[Reading] “Listen, Falwick, I assure you that I will leave in a few days. I also assure you that I have no intention to work here, to undertake any commission's or orders. I'm not here as a witcher, but on personal business.”

Count Falwick met his eyes and Geralt realized his mistake. There was pure unwavering hatred in the White Rose knight’s eyes. The witcher was sure that it was not Duke Hereward who was chasing him out, but Falwick and his like. […] The knight turned to Nenneke, bowed with respect and began to speak. He spoke calmly and politely. He spoke logically. But Geralt knew Falwick was lying through his teeth.

ALYSSA: Falwick says:

“Have I not made myself sufficiently clear, venerable Nenneke? I will make it so clear as can’t be clearer: neither the prince nor the Chapter of the Order will tolerate the presence of this witcher, Geralt, the Butcher of Blaviken, in Ellander for one more day.”

CRISANTO: Who has jurisdiction here? You know, do the knights really have power in this region? Like, are they allowed to push against religious sects here? Sects. The religious sect that is at this tempo. All the while, Geralt is just watching these two duke it out in words.

JESS: Yeah. Actually, I can't decide if this temple is more like a religion like a church. Or, is it more of like a scientific institution? Because I'm kind of getting that sense. Like, when you deliver a baby, that is healthcare. I feel like it could represent either, both science and religion in this case. And that's interesting.

ALYSSA: I mean, I think there could be like a very interesting conversation to be had around the idea of order and chaos. It's interesting to have this very strong sense of aggression under the impression of order coming from the members of the White Rose. And then you also have Nenneke, an aggressive feminine energy, coming into this from religion. Even though the order can represent the imposition of order, I feel like they do bring about like a kind of chaos and, like, aggression that's completely unnecessary In my opinion under the guise of law.

CRISANTO: It’s very likely that these knights are acting out of order. No pun intended. It's like extrajudicial. Like, it puts him in a tight spot, because he does have a sense of guilt. And he doesn't want to inconvenience the temple.

JESS: It's tough because he's trying to offer, like, an olive branch. And the two knights are saying, “No, just by you being here—

CRISANTO: Yeah.

JESS: —our Prince is offended. So, you need to get out. Your very existence offends us.” Almost like this curse onto this place that is caring for him.

CRISANTO: Yeah. 

ALYSSA: And, more specifically, Falwick references Geralt's title as the Butcher of Blaviken. So, there is a very specific reason for why they want him out. So, this interlude segues directly into the Lesser Evil, where we learn how Geralt got that name and why he's so infamous. After the Lesser Evil, we move into Part IV:

[Reading] Geralt’s monologues to the mute Iola. In it, we see more of his inner conflicts, learn about his experiences as a young witcher in Kaer Morhen, hear him recount his youthful idealism hardening into realism, and insight into his more recent moments of regret in Blaviken and Cintra.

ALYSSA: So, this is a really interesting chapter, because the entire thing is exclusively Geralt's dialogue. He's talking to Iola, who is mute. So, obviously, she doesn't say anything back. But, in it, there are moments where he reacts to some sort of feedback that he's getting from her.

JESS: Yeah. The silence almost kind of makes him uncomfortable. And he tries to fill it in. And he’ll be like, “I know what you're thinking.” But, well, actually --”

CRISANTO: This is – this is a huge chapter for Geralt.

ALYSSA: There's a lot of exposition of who he is as a person—

CRISANTO: Yeah.

ALYSSA: —and his past, and how he views himself.

CRISANTO: This is actually one of the very few instances where we see him truly vulnerable because Geralt is typically reacting to outside circumstances. He's reacting to danger. He's reacting to stress, tension. But, in, like, this particular instance, it's just him and a mute woman. So, there's no one to bounce his ideas off of except himself. So, I felt, for this particular passage of the Voice of Reason, like, this is his trance. Like, he's, he’s letting go.

JESS: I think the fact that she's mute also plays into that as well. He is going to therapy—oh, my god—

ALYSSA: Yeah.

CRISANTO: Yeah.

JESS: —So, this is his therapy.

CRISANTO: Yeah.

JESS: Yeah. Because, like, if you go to a therapist, everything has to stay confidential. She doesn't talk. So, he's able to be vulnerable, and tell the truth, and really reflect on things that he probably hasn't said out loud to other people before.

ALYSSA: And it's interesting, because it's noted throughout the entirety of the Last Wish, that, very often, Geralt is just silent. And, even, actually, as they've been recording the Netflix series, it might have been the showrunner Lauren Hissrich, but it could have been someone else that said Geralt is rather silent. And a lot of the acting required for this role did have to be nonverbal. And that's just inherent to his character. So, we have something really special here and unique and getting like pages of monologue from him.

JESS: Yeah. And it's a little bit of a surprise too, because sometimes, when you encounter someone who's really quiet, you just think that there's, like, nothing going on up there in the noggin. And I get that a lot, because I'm very quiet and very, very shy. But I like that this illustrates that people who are quiet, it's usually because they have, like, a very rich inner life and inner monologue. So, he's kind of like spilling out all of this stuff that has been kept silent, but it's, it's there. It's just that he's never expressed it out loud before.

CRISANTO: What I really like about this part of the Voice of Reason begins with two zingers. We, we see, like, Geralt, one, he believes physical strength is a virtue. And, two, he is vulnerable. There is a part of him that's insecure in his own outlook in the world. That's huge.

JESS: Yeah. I think of the last few lines, “But my faithlessness can do nothing. It's powerless.” I think his conversation with Nenneke kind of got to him because they were talking about faith and what power it has. So, he's kind of reflecting like, you know, “What does my lack of faith do for me? It does absolutely nothing. So, even if I don't believe in this deity, I mean I respect what you're – what you're doing, your sacrifice.”

CRISANTO: He has this little side about his swords and how he carries a one silver sword and one iron sword. He says that people think it's because the silver sword is to slay special demons. When in actuality, it's both of them. So, it's such a minor detail, but it conveys to the audience that he himself actually feels misunderstood by the world. They don't understand him and his trade fully. And that's not something like a fully secure person would say, you know.

ALYSSA: You know, we're gonna learn a lot more about the history of witchers, the misunderstanding around them, and the context for why they are so few in future chapters. But we do get a little bit here in Geralt's monologue to Iola. He talks about his history at Kaer Morhen as well as with the Trial of the Grasses. So, he says, “Yes, Kaer Morhen. I underwent the usual mutation there, through the Trial of Grasses, hormones, herbs, viral infections. And then through them all again. And again, to the bitter end. Apparently, I took the changes unusually well; I was only ill briefly. I was considered to be an exceptionally resilient brat . . . and was chosen for more complicated experiments as a result. They were worse. Much worse. But, as you see, I survived. The only one to live out of all those chosen for further trials. My hair’s been white ever since. Total loss of pigmentation. A side-effect, as they say. A trifle. We also get a little bit here about one of the other witchers that's at Kaer Morhen. Geralt's mentions Vesemir. He says, “So, what if he isn't my real father? I didn't know my parents.” We kind of get an understanding even very briefly of what could be a longing for family and a hope for found family in the future.

JESS: So, this is interesting when you hear about the trials to become witchers when he's having this monologue saying, “I respect your choice. I respect your sacrifice.” And that's interesting to me because it sounds like he sacrificed a lot, too. You hear how hard it is to become a witcher and, like, all the experiments that he went through because he was so resilient to them. They just pushed him, and pushed him, and pushed him until his hair went white. So—

ALYSSA: It's like a presidency.

[Laughter]

CRISANTO: Damn! Or parenthood. 

JESS: Yeah. And it's not just that his hair was white. He probably feels like he lost a little bit of his humanity through that process. So, he has sacrificed a lot. So, he's not giving himself enough credit.

ALYSSA: I, I think that there's some context to be added here along with that analysis. For a little bit of background about witchers, they’re chosen. They don't choose to become a witcher. So, I wonder if it's sacrifice or it was really suffering that it came down to. I feel like there's a certain amount of consciousness and acceptance in sacrifice. I guess, at some point, you would have the acceptance of what has happened. But this does seem to be something that happened to him. And there's a certain amount of suffering associated with this event that has changed the course of his life.

CRISANTO: I think here we see the trauma that Nenneke is talking about. He seems deeply scarred, but he never actually says it. It's always in our description of the circumstance. In this passage, he doesn't internalize it. He just says, “Oh, they were terrible experiments. I was the only survivor.” And then he just keeps going on. Like, you realize that he doesn't cover his feelings or trauma. He doesn't describe it even as trauma. He just says, “They were terrible.” And then he keeps, he just keeps going. Like, like—

JESS: Yeah. It reminded me of the way, umm, like, older generations reflect about war.

CRISANTO: Yeah.

JESS: And they get – they’re kind of touching it. And they're just like, “Yeah. Well, that was – that was war. That was then. This is now. Let's not talk about it.” Just because the trauma was too great, and the shame was too great, and they don't talk about it.

CRISANTO: It's interesting. Yeah. People internalize tragedy in different ways. And then you'll have the select few who just bottle up and don't talk about it.

JESS: Mhmm.

CRISANTO: And they're – they're still dealing with it. That line here where he talks about his hair. Like, he's a young man with white hair from experimentation. And he just glosses it over. Like, what kind of person is Geralt?

JESS: And it's kind of like a daily reminder of, like, this is the trauma that I went through. People see it. And—

ALYSSA: I mean it defines him physically and even Calanthe I think, in A Question of Price, mentions this. “He's the white-haired Witcher. And he's famous, and people sing about him at fairs.” And that's what identifies him really. And, as you say, it's kind of a daily reminder of the suffering and scarring experiences that he went through as a child in order to become something greater than what he could have been.

JESS: It depends on how he thinks about it. But just the fact that there was trauma there, and there's a physical record of it, and it's just there everyday for everyone to see.

ALYSSA: We also learn quite a bit about Geralt's progression and fall from idealism. The first monster that he met wasn't, you know, a Wyvern. It wasn't a dragon. It wasn't a striga. It was a human. And this is a huge concept that we see throughout this series and also that they're bringing to the Netflix show.

JESS: I'm a witcher to protect humanity. And, yet, humanity, like, are they worth my protection? I mean, it kind of confronts him with, “Is it all worth it? I don't know.”

CRISANTO: Yeah. It's tragic. We can see that there is humanity in Geralt. And, like, he's just super stoic and, as we see, just very jaded by his early experiences.

ALYSSA: He seemed to think of himself almost as a knight errand and his very early days. There is a lot of context in the world and, as we said, a lot of misunderstanding about what witchers are. And there's the impression that the Trial of the Grasses, what turns human boys into witchers, strips them of their emotions. And I think what we see here is that's, ultimately, not the case, whether that's for Geralt or whether that's for witchers as an entire cast. You know, obviously, we're not really sure. But, at least, for Geralt's in this moment, we see all of this vulnerability and all of this emotion come pouring out of him to Iola.

CRISANTO: Geralt is such a sad boy. Oh, man. At least, I got it from this is that he attaches a huge part of his identity to his occupation.

JESS: Mhmm.

ALYSSA: Huge danger for anybody.

CRISANTO: Yeah, which is a shame because he – you know, there's monetary reward in it. But, spiritually, it's kind of left him empty.

JESS: Yes, it's consumed him. So, it's really, like, his life.

CRISANTO: This man needs a new job.

JESS: Yeah. So, check that the wanted ads and everything. Or, they don't have wanted ads anymore. It has to be – what?

ALYSSA: Facebook posts.

JESS: Yeah, Facebook posts and idealist.org or whatever.

CRISANTO: Yeah.

JESS: Monster.com. But even that's kind of dated.

ALYSSA: There's funny puns—

JESS: Oh, my god.

ALYSSA: —to be said on monster.com.

JESS: Yes. Oh, my god. That was totally by accident, but we're gonna pretend that that was intentional. Yeah.

ALYSSA: I forgot that it was the job site to be honest.

JESS: Yeah. Monster.com is pre-LinkedIn job board.

CRISANTO: Geralt can make a killing into age.

ALYSSA: Oh, no. So, there's an interesting passage here where he admits to Iola something that I think is a little unexpected. The passage reads:

[Reading] “Mistakes? Of course, I’ve made them. But I keep to my principles. No, not the code. Although I have at times hidden behind a code. People like that. Those who follow a code are often respected and held in high esteem. But no one’s ever compiled a witcher’s code. I invented mine. Just like that. And keep to it. Always. Well, not always. There have been situations where it seemed there wasn’t any room for doubt. When I should say to myself, ‘What do I care? It’s nothing to do with me. I’m a witcher.’ When I should listen to the voice of reason. To listen to my instinct, even if it’s fear.”

But there are multiple times, where we saw throughout The Last Wish compilation, that people have asked about Geralt’s witcher code. And Geralt always has something to reference from it just off the top of his head. He's like, “I won't kill intelligent creatures,” in “The Edge of the World”. “It's part of my code.” Or I think Foltest even asks him, like, about his code, and Geralt is like, “Ah, yes, the code!” And he references something out of his ass. But it turns out, like, as we learned in this interlude, yo, there is none.

JESS: Yeah. It really is kind of coming out of his ass. It's just, like, whatever he wants to do, he'll do it. He’ll just like, “Sorry, you don't know about this witcher’s code. Umm, it's very important. And --

CRISANTO: He's just making shit up as it goes. Oh, man.

JESS: That's genius.

CRISANTO: Yeah.

ALYSSA: But he does have principles. Like, that's, that's the thing about it. I think there's something to be said about his farce of having them be almost standardized and the impression that they are something universal when really they are his own values at points when they come up throughout the series. Yeah. For example, like not killing Torque, the Sylvan, in “The Edge of the World”. They come from a place of, I think, compassion, and vulnerability, and empathy for others. I don't think it's a bad thing. And I think it's interesting that these are unique to Geralt and that he's formulated them on their own because it says a lot about his character and his desires about how to fit into the world.

JESS: Sometimes, he lives up to it. Sometimes, he breaks it. And that just shows he still has this humanity about him. And he, definitely – yeah.

CRISANTO: It ends with him bringing back up his title as Butcher of Blaviken. The Voice of Reason, not the story but, like, the actual concept of the Voice of Reason, is, I think, a recurring theme here. But let's say you touch it like the code of principles. Like, what's the best possible decision in difficult circumstances? When it comes to the tragedy at Blaviken, he seems deeply scarred. He feels like he's still made the wrong decision. You see that he's still conflicted because he still is trying to find his own code. Yet, he's hated for it. That's actually very tragic if you think about it.

ALYSSA: The actual excerpt here continues. And he says, “I should have listened to the voice of reason that time. I didn't. I thought I was choosing the lesser evil. I chose the lesser evil. Lesser evil! I’m Geralt! Witcher. I’m the Butcher of Blaviken.” And, so, you see that this has become not only a part of his external identity within the context of the world, but this is something that he's brought internally and has really scarred him.

JESS: So, what I like about the format of this interstitial story. It's coming in between every main story. So, here if you had just read The Lesser Evil and just, like, stopped there, you wouldn't have realized that Geralt is actually having regrets about his decision. It continues the story outside of the story. And you see kind of his reflections and things like that.

ALYSSA: So, the last little bit we get here talks about Geralt's experience in Cintra, which is a lead into the fourth story "A Question of Price." And Geralt says:

[Reading] “I know my fate whirls about me like water in a weir. It’s hard on my heels, following my tracks, but I never look back. A loop? Yes, that’s what Nenneke sensed. What tempted me, I wonder, in Cintra? How could I have taken such a risk so foolishly? No, no, no. I never look back. I’ll never return to Cintra. I’ll avoid it like the plague. I’ll never go back there. Heh, if my calculations are correct, that child would have been born in May, something around the feast of Belleteyn. If that’s true, it’s an interesting coincidence. Because Yennefer was also born on Belleteyn’s…”

ALYSSA: And he goes off. So, this introduces “A Question of Price”. And, before we start talking about that, you know, interstitials that follow, we're gonna take a quick break for Lars from Witcherflix. And, when we return, Jess, Crisanto, and I will continue with “The Voice of Reason”.

“Tidings from Toussaint”

[“Tidings from Toussaint” theme music by Bettina Campomanes]

LARS FROM WITCHERFLIX: Hey, it's Lars from Witcherflix and this is a very special edition of “Tidings from Toussaint.”

Wow, the last week was absolutely crazy. Alyssa and I were visiting the Continent during the Lucca Comics and Games convention in Italy where we attended 3 different Witcher related panels. We saw three awesome clips from the show and of course the new trailer on the big screen! We got author Andrzej Sapkowski to sign our Witcher books, saw costumes from season 1 in a beautiful exhibition and we took part in the Witcher Experience in Lucca where we had to do a little scavenger hunt and talk to dwarf traders, elves and fight a kikimora. If you haven't already, check out Alyssa's and my Instagram pages for dozens of photos from this awesome event.

Two big pieces of news were announced during the convention. The first one was the release date: On December 20th the show will be released on Netflix! So, there are not even 2 months to go! And of course, there was a new Witcher trailer. I really hope you have already watched it. It is great and we learn so much about the characters and the story and we even saw some monsters. We get our first glimpse at characters like Dandelion, Cahir and Renfri, we saw Geralt in action and Anya Chalotra as Yennefer stole every scene she was in. If you haven't watched it yet, have a look at breakfastinBeauclair.com where you'll find a link to the new trailer.

I also want to mention the three clips that were shown during the panel with Lauren Hissrich, Anya Chalotra and Freya Allan. We saw Geralt fight side by side with Duny of Erlenwald during the banquet at Cintra, after Eist Tuirseach announced "The Law of Surprise has been called". Only Queen Calanthe could stop the chaos, when she stood up from her throne, grabbed a sword and crossed her sword with Geralt's. The second scene was heartbreaking: It stars Yennefer sitting on a beach, with the body of a baby next to her. She talks about the role of women in the Continent's society and that the baby is better off dead. With this we learn that the show will not shy away from tough topics and themes. The third scene shows Ciri in a snowy forest, running away from something or someone. She meets a boy named Dara who helps her survive. Freya described this character during her panel: "When Ciri meets Dara, he becomes a massive part of her journey. He offers her a perspective on life, what she missed out on as she grew up in her bubble in Cintra. They connect and become a good team and help each other a huge amount.”

There were many interesting quotes during the panel. Showrunner Lauren S. Hissrich for example talked about creating characters for the show: "It’s a surprise for fantasy that there are so many strong female characters,” she said. “But for me it wasn’t about creating strong women, it was about creating strong characters. There are different kinds of strengths: Geralt wields two swords, while Yennefer’s strength comes from a place of pain.” Anya also talked about what she likes about Yennefer: "There are many strong characters in Andrzej’s books. Yen is one of them. She is unafraid and unapologetic. Independent and empowered and confident in her body."

Speaking of Andrzej Sapkowski: He also paid Lucca a visit. Andrzej did a panel and gave lots and lots of interviews. This is what he had to say about the trailer: "Yesterday I witnessed for the first time the screening of the trailer of The Witcher series, together with the fans. I didn’t even see the pilot episode because I like being surprised. But I can say one thing: if the series will be as beautiful as the trailer, we will have a masterpiece.”

During the third panel with executive producer Tomek Bagisnki and production designer Andrew Laws, costume designer Tim Aslam talked about the inspirations for the show that are more than visible in the trailer: "“I had a discussion with Lauren first. The style in the show is mainly based on Gothic influences, from medieval to the times between the 1830s to the 1890s. We’re also influenced by high fashion, which Lauren loves. There are also ethnic eastern influences. We tried to have a cohesive look for every different kingdom.”

Of course there is also a handful of Witcher news to report that is not connected with Lucca Comics and Games. According to RedanianIntelligence, British actor Leigh Gill will be in season 1 of the Witcher show. He is famous for his roles in season 6 of Game of Thrones when he played the role of Tyrion during the theater play in Braavos and as "Gary" in the new Joker movie with Joaquion Phoenix.

And last but not least: Thanks to the spies at RedanianIntelligence we not only know that Netflix is already planning the production of a second Witcher season, now we almost certainly know the titles of 6 of the 8 episodes of the season 1 of the Witcher show. They have found entries for the Witcher show on the website for the Writers Guild of America. The 6 episode titles are as follows: Four Marks, Betrayer Moon, Of Banquets, Bastards and Burials, Rare Species, Before a Fall and Much More, which will be the final episode of the first season. I think we all know what short story will be adapted in this one.

Well, this was a lot. but Lucca was awesome and I think I will remember my journey with Alyssa on the Continent for a very long time. Anyway guys, we'll talk again in the next episode of Breakfast in Beauclair. Until then, thanks again for listening and good luck on the path!"

[“Tidings from Toussaint” theme music by Bettina Campomanes]

Discussion

ALYSSA: Thanks for the update, Lars! Welcome back from the break. I’m here with Jess and Crisanto to continue our discussion of the framing short story from Andrezj Sapkowski’s The Last Wish, “The Voice of Reason.”

ALYSSA: In Part V, Dandelion arrives at The Temple of Melitele. Geralt laments to the bard of the socio-cultural changes that have affected his work as a witcher. So, Dandelion arrives. And this is an introduction for the “The Edge of the World,” which is Geralt’s and Dandelion's first adventure together. The introduction that Nenneke actually gives here, she tells Geralt that he has a visitor. And Geralt says, “Is it those goddamn knights again?” And the Nenneke says, “No.” And the quote reads, “It’s Dandelion this time, your fellow. That idler, parasite, and good-for-nothing, that priest of art, the bright shining star of the ballad and love poem. As usual, he’s radiant with fame, puffed up like a pig’s bladder and stinking of beer. Do you want to see him?” And Geralt says, “Of course, he's my friend after all.”

CRISANTO: Geralt has friends?

ALYSSA: Actually, it just says explicitly Dandelion's just like, “You just had your horse until I came along. So, ha!” 

JESS: That passage that you just read, when I was reading it for the first time, I think that's when I started reflecting, “Why are they friends? Are their friends? Yeah, their friends, but what makes them such a good team, because I think they are a good team.”

CRISANTO: Mhmm.

JESS: So, I’ll just put that question out to you guys. Like, why do you think Geralt and Dandelion are friends? Like, what makes them such a good pair?

ALYSSA: It really is as I think both Nenneke and Geralt alluded to that it is an attraction of opposites. He's very much like this focus, blue-collar worker. And Dandelion comes in peacocky just steamrolling everything and anything that Geralt does or tries to do.

JESS: Dandelion is kind of getting material for all of his ‘bardgery.’ I don't know. Like, he's—

CRISANTO: ‘Bardgery.’

JESS: I don’t know. His bard, his job as a bard. Yeah. And he also kind of gets protection from this tough guy.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

JESS: And, so, I was kind of just like wondering, like, what is in it for Geralt as well. Like, like, obviously, like, I see why Dandelion would want to be with Geralt, but what's in it for our Geralt?

CRISANTO: I think it's a yin and yang situation. They both have qualities in each other that they admire in the other and kind of aspire to. Like, Dandelion is, is an artist. He's not physically strong at all. He doesn't have the capacity to fight any of these beasts like Geralt does, but, you know, but he's sentimental. He speaks his mind. He's open with his emotions as opposed to Geralt who's very, you know, within himself. He's not good at vocalizing his feelings. This is my own interpretation. Maybe, in Dandelion, he sees a brother and someone who can express himself and, you know, open up his emotion. So—

JESS: What I'm hearing from both of you is kind of like, so, while Geralt has his walls up and is very, you know, guarded, Dandelion kind of like throws these rainbows at him like, “Hey, let's bring down this wall with my rainbows.” So, he's pretty much like a carebear. Just like rainbow shooting out his stomach and just like saving the world.

CRISANTO: Yeah.

JESS: I don't know. Yeah. I think, yeah, you're definitely right. Like, the yin and yang. He, they’re, they kind of balance each other out.

ALYSSA: And I mean the odd couple is like a classic trope in literature and entertainment. I think it does antagonize them both sometimes in the way that, as you said, like siblings would that brothers could. And I think, at this point, they're kind of just stuck together, I think, for better.

JESS: The sibling thing is definitely real. I think Dandelion isn't afraid to call out Witcher. Like, he's like – he's, like, coming into, you know, Geralt’s space and, like, saying – he'll say stuff to him, like, “Oh, stop being a piss baby,” Pretty much like – it’s like, “Get out of your feelings, dude.” And he's very candid. And, you know, sometimes, as Geralt said, like, humans can be ugly sometimes. Sometimes, they're not honest. Sometimes, they're very misleading and manipulative, but, for Dandelion, he's not manipulative at all. He's – well, maybe he is a little bit in a – in a way that little scams can be. But he's not – you know, he doesn't have any ulterior motives with a Geralt. He's very honest. He's not trying to, you know, make Geralt bow down to him. He sees him as an equal. He doesn't see him as a monster or anything. There's no titles involved. And there's no, like, politeness involved. There's no egos with him.

ALYSSA: I think it's interesting to see that play between realism and idealism. You have Geralt who is a supposed realist kind of lamenting the ways of the world. And then Dandelion comes in with like, “You're being ridiculous.”

CRISANTO: There's a whimsical outlook that Dandelion has. Even though he's an artist, I think he even insults Geralt and his profession. He says that you know, “Your job is ridiculous. Every day, you make yourself more obsolete. You kill monsters. And, if there are less monsters in the world, you know, you're unemployed. So—

ALYSSA: Yeah.

CRISANTO: —why are you still a witcher basically?” That's, that's an incredibly pertinent idea. Like, you know, the idea that Geralt’s entire identity is in this profession that's gonna end the more proficiently he is at it.

ALYSSA: And I mean he does have, like, a funny little thing here where he says, “You’ll go hungry unless you change your line of work.” And Geralt responds, “To what?” And Dandelion says, “Whatever. Become a priest. You wouldn’t be bad at it with all your scruples, your morality, your knowledge of people, and of everything. The fact that you don’t believe in any gods shouldn’t be a problem—I don’t know many priests who do. Become a priest and stop feeling sorry for yourself.” And then he continues saying, “You remind me, Geralt, of an old fisherman who, toward the end of his life, discovers that fish stink and the breeze from the sea makes your bones ache. Be consistent. Talking and regretting won’t get you anywhere.” He's such an asshole. And, like, the way that it's necessary to have a good friend or sibling who would say these things to you to kind of shake you when you need to be shook—”shooketh” as the kids say. The necessity of having external ideas and people there to broaden your scope of thinking. Their relationship and even the odd couple dynamic, as a trope, really does that.

ALYSSA: In Part VI, Nenneke cares for Geralt in a cave grotto, where she grows a collection of healing plants. Geralt admits to Nenneke that he’s afraid that Yennefer will find him here in the temple. Nenneke tells him that she won’t return to the temple anytime soon. We learn that Geralt had left Yennefer, ending their relationship, and Nenneke asks the witcher how he met the sorceress.

CRISANTO: I really love how Sapkowski opens up this, this chapter with the description of the plants. This cavern with the crystal ceiling and – let me read this here. “Plants were everywhere. They grew out of beds hewn into the bedrock and filled with peat, in enormous chests, and troughs, and flowerpots. They climbed up rocks, up wooden trellises and stakes. Geralt examined them with interest, recognizing some rare specimens – those which made up the ingredients of a witcher’s medicines and elixirs, magical philtres and a sorcerer’s decoctions, and others, even rarer, whose qualities he could only guess at. Some he didn’t know at all, or hadn’t even heard of.”

JESS: Oh, I like that.

CRISANTO: Yeah.

JESS: It's like it's establishing almost like this laboratory or a greenhouse.

ALYSSA: And it continually mentions, both the narrator and Geralt talk about how hot it is in there, and how uncomfortable he is, both physically and then, as we'll find out, emotionally. Hooray! This grotto sets the stage for his vulnerability and his discomfort. And they specifically are talking about Yennefer. So, as we said earlier, the events of each of the short stories chronologically happens prior to the Voice of Reason. So, Yennefer has been in his life for—we're not entirely sure how long. But we know, at this point, that the relationship has ended. And Geralt has converted his earnings from the striga contract into like a bunch of stones because it's easier to just carry around and hide and hold on to. And he asks Nenneke to give some of these to Yennefer, to keep some as an offering to the temple, and to give the rest to Yennefer. And Nenneke tells him to fuck off basically. She's like, “I'm not gonna do this for you. Stop being a child.” And there's this excellent, excellent passage. So, Nenneke tells him:

[Reading] “She won’t be back in a hurry, because we quarreled. No, not because of you. She didn’t ask about you.”

ALYSSA: And Geralt just says:

[Reading] “She didn't ask?”

ALYSSA: And Nenneke says:

[Reading] “That’s where it hurts,” the priestess laughed. “You’re egocentric like all men. There’s nothing worse than a lack of interest, is there? Than indifference? No, but don’t lose heart.”

ALYSSA: And it's so true. The opposite of love isn't hate, but it's truly indifference. Because, at that point, you don't really feel anything for or against the person. You're just completely apathetic to them. So, there's no passion at all on either side, because hate implies a passion of some sort. And the conversation continues. Nenneke says:

[Reading] “Leave everything as it is, because you’re no longer in a position to mend anything or make anything better. Running away from her, you behave well, let’s say in a manner not particularly worthy of a mature man. By trying to wipe away your guilt with precious stones, you’ll behave like a very, very over-mature man. I really don’t know what sort of man I can stand less.”

ALYSSA: And Geralt says:

[Reading] “She was too possessive… I couldn’t stand it. She treated me like—”

ALYSSA: And Nenneke cuts him off.

[Reading] “Stop it,” she said sharply. “Don’t try on my shoulder. I’m not your mother, and I don’t be your confidante either. I don’t give a shit how she treated you, and I care even less how you treated her. And I don’t intend to be a go-between or give these stupid jewels to her. If you want to be a fool, do it without using me as an intermediary.”

ALYSSA: Ah, so much tough love.

JESS: Mhmm.

CRISANTO: He’s a grown-ass man.

ALYSSA: I know and she chastises him. Because I mean, when you think about it—

CRISANTO: Oh, man.

ALYSSA: —this is probably the first time that he's ever really experienced like, as, like, love, presumably, as far as we know at least as readers. And this is like him trying to fix things with his first girlfriend. And then his mom being like, “You’re fucking idiot.”

CRISANTO: Here are chocolates. Please take them.

JESS: Yeah. Like, I'm sure, like, everyone had their first love. And they're going through this, like, when they're, like, 16 or something. He experiences it at however old he is now. So, it's just like, “This isn't cute, dude. Like—”

CRISANTO: Mhmm.

JESS: “—you should be beyond this. Like, get out of here.”

ALYSSA: Man. Nenneke and Geralt, it, it's not totally explicitly here. But they talk about Yennefer's infertility and her desire for a child. And that she, if she can cure infertility in a regular woman, why can't she cure it in herself? So, that's kind of a huge point of conversation for the two of them. And that's part of the reason why Geralt wants to give these stones to Yennefer. Infertility is common among sorceresses. It's—and witchers actually. So, none of them can procreate. And they also live for a very long time. So, it's not necessarily a biological issue. But, for Yennefer, it's very psychological and very emotional in that she wants children. And Geralt tells this to Nenneke and, like, “Give her these stones so she can help herself.” And Nenneke says, “You're an idiot. She makes way more than this on her own. Like, like you're not helping anything by her. You're just, like, belittling or chastising her by trying to help. Go away.” So, that's the background on, like, infertility and we’ll, it become, it just becomes a very important part of both Yennefer and Geralt’s choices within, within the Witcher world in the saga as we'll see.

ALYSSA: [Reading] In Part VII, we move to the books outro. The knights of the White Rose intercept the witcher and Dandelion outside of the temple, this time under the watchful eye of Dennis Cranmer, a dwarf and the captain of Prince Hereward’s guard. Falwick and Tailles force the witcher to fight. Geralt duels Tailles and manages to win around the duel’s arbitrary restrictions and rules. When Geralt leaves the temple, he and Iola accidentally touch, causing her to fall into a trance with a grim vision of Geralt’s future. Despite Nenneke’s pleas and concerns after the vision, Geralt leaves the temple.

JESS: So, there’s this interesting part where Sir Falwick actually reveals the, the plan that they have. So, they're pretty much saying that we're gonna have you face off against Sir Tailles. And then you're gonna have to submit to him so that way Sir Tailles gets the win I guess. So, we could go and say, “Oh, yey! We beat you!” And Geralt’s just like, “What? Like, why, why would I do that?”

CRISANTO: Mhmm.

JESS: Also, we find out, Sir Tailles, he's not that great. I mean, like, he doesn't have that much like—

CRISANTO: He has no skill, yeah.

JESS: Yeah.

ALYSSA: Just this whole situation is so ridiculous. Geralt says, “If I understand correctly, I’m to fight the duel because, if I refuse, I’ll be hanged. If I fight, I’m to allow my opponent to injure me because if I wound him, I’ll be put to the rack. What charming alternatives. Maybe I should save you the bother? I’ll thump my head against the pine tree and render myself helpless. Will that grant you satisfaction?” This might be a little bit earlier, but Dandelion says, ‘Your argument is charming, Captain, fascinating even. You’re trying to bait a man ambushed in the forest with humanitarianism, calling on his nobler feelings. You’re asking him, as I understand, to deign not to spill the blood of the brigands who attacked him. He’s to take pity on the thugs because the thugs are poor, have got wives, children and, who knows, maybe even mothers. But don’t you think, Captain Cranmer, that your worrying is premature? Because I look at your lancers and see that their knees are shaking at the very thought of fighting with Geralt of Rivia, the witcher who dealt with a striga alone, with his bare hands. There won’t be any bloodshed here; nobody will be harmed here – aside from those who might break their legs running away.”

JESS: Dandelion, like, he is here, like, being the voice of reason. Going back to what we were talking about before about chaos and reason, it's just so backwards. It's like ass backwards. You would go against my guy, Geralt? 

CRISANTO: Yeah.

JESS: Like, who’s, like, taken down a striga? Like, no, I don’t—

ALYSSA: Let's put some money and see what's gonna happen. Yeah. To go back to why they're trying to do this in the first place, one of you, Jess or Crisanto, had pulled a quote on what Dennis Cranmer, the head of the guard, says about what makes a knight. That brief quote gets to I think the core of why they're doing this, but also how ridiculous this is.

CRISANTO: Dennis Cranmer, his idea of what makes the knight is a scar. He believes that, you know, a scar is a sign of hardship that you've endured. The quote is, “For a knight, a scar is a commendable reminder, a reason for fame and glory, which the order so desired for him. And that, without a scar, he’s a prick, not a knight.” That’s such a harsh burn.

ALYSSA: It's so fucking funny though.

CRISANTO: Yeah.

ALYSSA: Like, oh, man.

CRISANTO: I think there's definitely some unspoken shade towards Tailles himself. Like, I think there's this recognition amongst almost everyone in the room that he's kind of a little, entitled little shit.

JESS: Yep. Yes.

CRISANTO: Because Geralt, in one of the earlier, “Voice of Reason” chapters, he assumes correctly that Tailles doesn't have scars, because he's never seen real battle. He's never seen real battle and is a knight because his father basically paid his tuition.

ALYSSA: LOL.

CRISANTO: Yeah.

JESS: And, yeah, he's very young as well. Another part earlier on, like, they get into like a shouting match, and his voice literally cracks because that's how young he is. He's just a very green, like—

CRISANTO: Yeah.

JESS: —you know, young boy.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

JESS: And he's a lot more bark than he has bites. So, they want to give him this experience of saying, “Yeah, I took some guy down.”

ALYSSA: And it was a witcher, nonetheless. So, the fight itself is just absolutely ridiculous. Geralt is given this restriction. He's forced to duel, because, if he doesn't duel, he'll be hanged. But he also can't touch Tailles. They go to fight. Tailles takes a swing, and Geralt deflects it so hard that Tailles hits himself in the face with his own sword. 

CRISANTO: Yeah. 

ALYSSA: He, like, falls to the ground, like, crying. Falwick is, like, get him referring to Geralt. And Dennis Cranmer holds all the guards saying like, “I'm here to serve my order to the tee. The Witcher didn't do anything Taille's just an idiot enough that he hit himself with his sword. Let's go.” So, they kind of call everyone off.

JESS: Yeah. So, Geralt is off the hook. And he didn't have to actually fight. He just, you know, the guy knocked himself out.

CRISANTO: And this goes back to Geralt’s code, his self-prescribed code as a witcher. He says he doesn't want to hurt other human beings, and he doesn't.

JESS: He doesn't hurt him.

CRISANTO: Yeah. He doesn’t hurt him. Yeah.

JESS: They hit themselves. 

CRISANTO: And then he finds a creative way to win.

ALYSSA: There's a very brief excerpt here that one of you pulled about, at the very end when Falwick tries to call in the other guard to stop Geralt. Geralt uses their logic against Falwick and says:

[Reading] “If I were to challenge you now, Falwick, would you fight me or not? If you do fight me, you're going to lose and you know as much. And, if you don't fight me, do you publicly say that you're not as good because you refuse to fight?”

ALYSSA: Falwick just kind of pales completely. And Geralt says:

[Reading] “I can hear the voice of reason in your silence, Falwick, sir. You’ve satisfied my curiosity. Now, I’ll satisfy yours. If the Order bothers Mother Nenneke or the priestesses in any way or unduly intrudes upon Captain Cranmer, then may you know, Count, that I’ll find you and, not caring about any code, will bleed you like a pig.”

JESS: I love this.

CRISANTO: Yeah.

JESS: He’s pretty much saying like, “Don't mess with me. Don't mess with Dandelion. Don't mess with Nenneke. Just like we, we know who's the better man here. So, this is a warning to you.” 

CRISANTO: Yeah.

JESS: And I love that. Its kind of like my takeaway from this was just that. First of all, Geralt is very clever, the way that he outwitted them. The second thing I learned about him is he's like ride or die for his friends. Like, he'll do anything to protect them. I mean he's out here, like, killing strigas and, like, being like the super rough and tumble person. But, you know, when it comes down to it, he cares about his friends and – or maybe not necessarily friends in the case of Nenneke. But, if he respects you, you know, I guess he’s looking out for you.

CRISANTO: And he has principles despite being so jaded. He's not entirely a lost cause. Like, he still has so much of humanity left and will defend innocence.

ALYSSA: Do you think his principles and his code are because of his jadedness or despite it?

JESS: I think it intermingles with both, because, like we were saying before, sometimes, he just kind of makes it up as he goes. And, yeah, I think it's a little bit of both. His code is so malleable.

CRISANTO: I think it's despite it. I think he's just an innately understanding, empathetic human being. We know that the Butcher of Blaviken title bothers him. And, yet, here he's willing to butcher someone to protect innocents. So, even though the trauma still bothers him, like, he will commit another in any second or murder too as opposed to—

JESS: Oh! Like Robin Hood.

CRISANTO: Yeah.

ALYSSA: So, I think it's a combination of all of these things kind of refining his character from idealism to this malleable, yes, but pretty I think refined code of behavior that he kind of carries around with him.

ALYSSA: So, the very last part in the Voice of Reason, Geralt is now leaving the Temple of Melitele. And Nenneke and some of the novices are helping him pack and leave. Throughout the entire chapter and throughout the entirety of the book, Nenneke has been trying to push Iola onto Geralt in order to get him to have a trance because she's some sort of medium for this experience. And Geralt has been avoiding it this whole time. But, when Iola hands him a chest of belongings, their hands accidentally touch and she falls into this seizure-like trance. They show a vision of Geralt's future. So, the excerpt just reads:

[Reading] “Blood. Blood. Blood. Bones like broken white sticks. Tendons like whitish cords exploding from beneath cracking skin cut by enormous paws bristling with thorns, and sharp teeth. The hideous sound of torn flesh, and shouting—shameless and horrifying in its shamelessness. The shamelessness of the end. Of death. Blood and shouting. Shouting. Blood. Shouting—”

ALYSSA: And it cuts off. Iola sees this. Geralt sees this. And Nenneke sees this only very briefly. After this happens, she begs Geralt not to go, but he leaves anyway.

CRISANTO: We're getting a sequel.

JESS: Yeah. This is actually the point where it's, like, “Oh, no. What happens next?” Because this vision is just so, it's so bleak and violent. And just like, “Oh, my god, that's a lot of blood repeated on the page.” Like, I know that there's a lot of books coming up. So, it just, it just made me want to read more.

CRISANTO: As a reader, like, you know, “Geralt, maybe we should talk about this. Maybe we should talk about these bones and blood.” And Geralt, just as stoic as ever, just turns around and goes, “There's no point in looking over your shoulder.”

ALYSSA: Destiny and fate is such a huge part of The Witcher saga as a whole. And we're gonna continually see why. But I think the idea of fatalism in the context of his occupation is very interesting. I forgot where it is, and whether it's part of the books or the games to be honest. There's supposedly a quote from Vesemir I believe about, “No witcher ever died in his own bed.” Like just with the context of their occupation and what it requires of them. This is something that he's already accepted, whether it's something that he's explicitly seen in a vision like this or if it's something that he's always kind of known inherently. Sapkowski’s worlds and the way that he weaves this narrative assumes that destiny and fatalism is real, is inherent to it.

CRISANTO: I find that note depressing at least in Geralt visions. Like, I would say that he's reserved himself to that fate. Like, he will die a horrific death. He's very whatever about it. He didn’t respond. 

JESS: Very pragmatic. He’s like, “Yeah, I'm a witcher. That's what happens to a Witcher. We die in, in battle. And maybe my battle is gonna be a little bit more gruesome than, than other witchers over there. But you know what? I knew I was gonna die. So, let's, let's just do it. Let's keep on going.

CRISANTO: Yeah.

ALYSSA: With the end of the book, what are your key takeaways? And what are you looking forward or hoping to see in the rest of the series?

JESS: I think “The Voice of Reason” specifically, all the chapters that are in between the action, I thought it was very cool to really focus on Geralt as a character, his inner life, and his psychology. And we discussed that a lot. So, I really appreciate that. You know, he's very clever. And he's very smart. And, being around him, I mean I understand why Dandelion is his friend. Like, being around him, like, it's not a boring life. It was exciting to read this, not only just to have the action, but also have the quieter moments of who he is as a person.

CRISANTO: And, for me, the Witcher is like an incomplete Odyssey. It's like an incomplete hero's journey. You see a lot of his fall from grace. The hero's journey, his rise to glory, fall from grace, and return to glory. We’re introduced to a lot of his sufferings, actually; the Butcher of Blaviken and having lost Yennefer. So, I think, in further additions when I read the next books, I do want to learn more about what actually makes him happy, you know, his childhood, especially like more about that place, Kaer Morhen, right? 

JESS: Mhmm.

CRISANTO: Like, why are they doing that? Why are they doing that to these children and be like weaponizing them? They killed kids, you know, experimenting on them, right? Is that—

ALYSSA: Yeah. Yeah.

CRISANTO: Yeah. So, I definitely want to learn more about his background, his childhood, what—and what happens between him and Yennefer? That's a huge question mark.

JESS: I'm just really excited to read more. I mean, I think this book, just reflecting on this whole blog, it has everything. It has comedy. It has action.

CRISANTO: Yeah.

JESS: It has ethical and philosophical debates. It has politics and race in its own way. It, it delves into a lot of different things. And it's just really awesome. I just want to read more. This – with it being a set of short stories, I'm definitely excited to look at the longer form stories.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

JESS: And then there's like full-length novels, where it's like a totally different experience. When you're reading a short story, it comes to a satisfying end. And then you go into the next story. And that has a satisfying end. But, with a novel, you get to really, like, live with the characters. And, like, there's an ongoing plot. And it's not, like, an abrupt end, like, some of them were. Yeah. I'm looking forward to having that longer form medium.

CRISANTO: There's a lot of cliffhangers especially within—

JESS: Yeah.

CRISANTO: —short stories. And they’re, I believe they are clear decisions by Sapkowski to set up, like, future editions using the lore. Like, what happened to Pavetta’s kid, you know? That child is definitely coming back into the story. Like, that's a given, right?

[Alyssa fails to make a spoiler-free poker face.]

CRISANTO: Yeah. I'm so right.

ALYSSA: I have a very expressive face, and I know that you, as listeners, can't see it. Yeah.

CRISANTO: Yeah. Yeah.

JESS: Just speaking honestly, like, the, the short story, like, format, like, it took me forever to finish this book. Just because, like I was saying, like, every story had a satisfying ending. And I guess the Voice of Reason was what kind of kept me to keep going, but I have noticed with short story, collections or anthologies, like, “I’ll, like, finish this story. I’m like, “Wow. That's a really nice story.” And then I'll put the book down. And I'll just forget that I was reading that book.

CRISANTO: Because there's so much lore to digest. And there are so many details peppered throughout that are hurdled over for the sake of—

JESS: Yeah.

CRISANTO: —continuing the main plot of that short story.

JESS: They touch on it and then they go. It's, like, they have, like, a very quick red light, and then like zoom. Like green light. Like, let’s, let’s get out of here.

CRISANTO: Yeah. Yeah. And Geralt and Dandelion continue their journey.

JESS: Yeah. It’s, like, he hints at a lot of things, but doesn't dive into them, because he's diving into other things. 

CRISANTO: Yeah.

JESS: Like a, like when we say like the philosophical, ethical things.

CRISANTO: Mhmm.

JESS: He, you know, has to spend his time carefully with the short form narrative. So, you know, with novels, you can kind of really play with a lot more deeper discussions on every little detail.

CRISANTO: What did you think, Alyssa? You've read a large portion of the anthology, right?

ALYSSA: I, I have read all of them.

CRISANTO: There you go. Yeah. So, how—

ALYSSA: I've read all of them multiple times. And I feel like it's hard for me to say anything without giving anything away. But, you know, there are seven more books to go. There's a lot more to get into. There's a lot more lore and plot and character development. And, as I alluded to earlier, like, one of my favorite things about this work really is the ensemble cast. And I know that, Crisanto, you’re just like, “It's not like Game of Thrones.” And I just said, “Not yet.”

CRISANTO: Oh, man.

ALYSSA: You know, I'm always so jealous of people who are reading it for the first time, because it's such an incredible experience going through this series for the very first time. I'm really excited for you guys to both continue reading the books. And I hope that you do. And we also have, like, the Netflix series that’s coming out and rumors of an animated series on top of the live-action series.

JESS: No way.

ALYSSA: Plus all the games. Plus other things. So, there's a lot going on and a lot of opportunity for this world that I think it's gonna be really exciting to dive into. So, that’s it for our show today. Jess and Crisanto, thanks so much for joining us for this episode and thank you to our community for listening. So, where can people find you? And, again, is there anything that you would like to share with us?

JESS: Okay. So, you could find the cosplay photography group. It's @TeamLensFlare, T-E-A-M-L-E-N-S-F-L-A-R-E. I think we talked about it last time. But it's just like this really cool cosplay photography group that we've got. So --

CRISANTO: Yeah. We welcome any collaborations if you're a Witcher cosplayer out there or any medieval or like fantasy.

JESS: Yeah. And, if you're in our area, like, hit us up.

CRISANTO: Yeah, please. We are based in New Jersey.

JESS: I'm @j_bagsy, j_B-A-G-S-Y. And then Crisanto’s @GreatGiraffe, G-R-E-A-T-G-I-R-A-F-F-E. Oh, my god. I forgot how to spell giraffe. I spelled that right, right?

CRISANTO: Yeah, you did.

JESS: Yeah. Oh, and that's all on Instagram. Like, I just assumed that the social media choice is Instagram these days, but Crisanto has, like, a whole bunch of cool 3D projects that he does just, just for fun.

CRISANTO: For fun. Yeah. I’m training to become—

JESS: Yeah. And they're amazing.

CRISANTO: —a more talented 3D artist. But, yeah, by day, I'm a freelance photographer and videographer.

JESS: So, that's crisantojorda.com.

CRISANTO: Yeah.

JESS: C-R-I-S-A-N-T-O-G-O – wait. J.

CRISANTO: J. Yeah. J. I, actually, want to thank you, Alyssa, for popping our Witcher cherry.

JESS: Oh, god. 

ALYSSA: Hey.

JESS: Why do you have to say it like that?

ALYSSA: It's been my pleasure. Next episode, we’re heading over to Poland to chat with Anita and Karolina from Witcher Kitchen, who will kick off Sapkowski’s next short story compilation, The Sword of Destiny, with one of my favorite short stories, “The Bounds of Reason.”

Outro & Credits

[Breakfast in Beauclair theme music by MojoFilter Media]

ALYSSA: Thanks for joining us at the breakfast table! For show notes, transcripts of each episode, and a complete list of our social platforms and listening services, head over to breakfastinbeauclair.com.

Breakfast in Beauclair is created by Alyssa from GoodMorhen. It’s hosted by Alyssa with the “Tidings from Toussaint” News Segment by Lars from WitcherFlix. The show is edited by Alyssa with the Breakfast in Beauclair theme by MojoFilter Media and the “Tidings from Toussaint” theme by Bettina Campomanes.

Breakfast in Beauclair is produced by Alyssa in New York City with Luis of Kovir, The Owner of The Churlish Porpoise, Coolguyhenry, Arix the Godling, Katie (The Redhead of Toussaint), Jacob, David, Mahakam Elder Joe, Julie, and Sylvia of Skellige.

Special thanks to Jess & Crisanto for joining us for this episode and our international hanza for their support.

Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo 
Editor: Krizia Casil

 

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