Ep. 42 — Chapter 6 from "Blood of Elves" (Part 1)

Garrison from the US and Daniel from the Netherlands join Alyssa for Part 1 of our discussion of Andrzej Sapkowski’s first Witcher novel Blood of Elves, Chapter 6. Very important bits include: Nicodemus de Boot’s condemnation of murder regardless of motive or circumstance; Northern displays of strength; historical parallels to kingdoms, empires, and regimes in our world; peacetime v. wartime leadership; convenient unions; ugly solutions; drunken suggestions; strategy by committee; and The Worst Game of “Yes, and—” Ever.

This episode is available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, and Stitcher.

Transcript

Cold Open

ALYSSA: So I'll find a way to like piece all this stuff kind of, like holistically, and we can—

DAN: Oh, God. Good luck.

ALYSSA: I’ll, I'll do it. I do it every time.

[Breakfast in Beauclair theme music by MojoFilter Media]

Introduction

ALYSSA: Welcome to Breakfast in Beauclair, a global Witcher Podcast. My name is Alyssa from GoodMorhen, and I’ll be your host as you, I, and our international hanza accompany Geralt of Rivia and his destiny, Cirilla of Cintra, across the Continent.

[Happy 3rd Birthday, GoodMorhen]

Find Alyssa’s first Witcher project, GoodMorhen, on Instagram.

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[Episode Details]

As for this episode, Garrison from the US and Daniel from the Netherlands join us for Part 1 of our discussion of Blood of Elves, Chapter 6. Join us as we discuss Nicodemus de Boot’s condemnation of murder regardless of motive or circumstance; Northern displays of strength; historical parallels to kingdoms, empires, and regimes in our world; peacetime v. wartime leadership; convenient unions; ugly solutions; drunken suggestions; strategy by committee; and The Worst Game of “Yes, and—” Ever.

In our mid-episode news segment, “Tidings from Toussaint,” Lars from Witcherflix shares behind-the-scenes insights from Lauren Hissrich and Beau DeMayo about “The Witcher” and Nightmare of the Wolf.

Without further ado, let’s begin our discussion of Blood of Elves, Chapter 6.

Discussion

[Breakfast in Beauclair stinger by MojoFilter Media]

ALYSSA: Welcome to Breakfast in Beauclair. My name is Alyssa and I am so pleased to welcome two new guests to the show. Our first guest is a professional dungeon master and game master from a cattle farm in Kentucky. You know him from the hanza’s D&D games and our Discord lounge. Please welcome Gary from Kentucky. Hi, Gary.

GARY: Oh, hi!

ALYSSA: Oh, hi! Yes. Our second guest is a half-Dutch, half-German student studying History and specializing in Ancient and Medieval History with a fascination for Feudal Politics, Religion and the fall of Rome. Please welcome Daniel from the Netherlands. Hi, Dan.

DAN: Hi. Thanks for having me.

ALYSSA: Yes, absolutely. I'm so glad to have you both on again. Thank you so much for your patience. When I first booked you guys for this episode, that was in December 2019? It has now been over a year and a half and I'm so glad that we all have gotten to know each other through the discord, through playing D&D in that time, and I'm so excited to see what you both have to bring to the conversation today.

GARY: Wow, that was a long time ago.

ALYSSA: It was, it was so long ago.

GARY: Kind of ridiculous. Feels like a different lifetime.

ALYSSA: But like I said, there's been so much that has happened and thanks to, I think both of you really, we've got an opportunity to get to know each other in the last you know, six, seven months by having a Discord community here and by playing D&D a ton. So as I always do, I'd love to learn more about both of you before we jump into the episode. Do you guys mind telling me how you both got into the Witcher?

DAN: Eh, I can start. It's quite a confusing story, to be honest. Sort of started quiet I think like most others, they saw like “Hey, that Witcher 3’s game coming out.” So I saw that, was like, “Ooh, looks nice!” but my laptop can't afford it. So I'll start with the first one, Witcher 1. Before I started, I wanted to play the game, I looked at a video about it. In that video someone read about the first chapter of the Last Wish, you know, with the battle between Geralt and striga so it's completely hooked in that, and I was like, “Oh, where'd you get a text?” And the video was like I read it in a book. I was like fuck, I can’t play the games. Now I got to start with the books. First read the books, and then finally play the games until my computer was able to run the Witcher 3.

ALYSSA: And how did you like the Witcher 3 when you finally got to it after all of those detours through the first few games and the books? How did it feel to finally get your hands on it?

DAN: Honestly, I think it's the weakest game of the three, story wise.

ALYSSA: I just took a sip of water.

DAN: In my opinion the other games feel like continuation of the stories in the books —

ALYSSA: Mm.

DAN: — although the Witcher 3 is, in many other ways, of course, a way better game.

ALYSSA: So interesting the way that you got into the series. Uh, Gary, what about you?

GARY: So, very uniquely, I watched one stream of somebody playing Witcher 3, saw the Leshen fight in that and said, “Alright, I'm gonna buy it.” And then weirdly, the first day I played it, I had a fever. And I tried playing through the game with a fever and had some crazy fever dreams about like the intro to that game. From there on, I was hooked. Eventually found out there's books and was like —

ALYSSA: Mm hmm.

GARY: — Okay, and start reading the books. Got the Last Wish, read it in a day. I think from like the time I got it from a local bookshop to like eight o'clock that night. My mom was like, “Hey, are you coming for dinner?” I'm like, “Oh, hello.” Ah, I was sitting uncomfortably, like sprawled out on a couch, and I can remember exactly how uncomfortable it was to sit but I didn't want to stop reading the book so I just sat there uncomfortably that entire time. I've read all the books up to Tower of Swallows in like a year, and then I didn't read the last half of Tower of Swallows, and the last book, Lady of the Lake, for like another four years. I just, because school, college gets very busy. So I wasn't able to make time for reading. And then finally did on my senior year, which should be the busiest time but it was the easiest. And I actually finished that off after we had been set to be on the podcast. I was like I really should finish the books if I’m gonna be on a podcast about the books —

ALYSSA: Yes.

GARY: — And then once I finished all the books, I went back and played Witcher 1 and 2. Uh I will tell everybody, don't go play Witcher 1, go play Witcher 2. It’s okay. A that's my spiel.

ALYSSA: Yeah, I mean, so many people just find their way to the Witcher series through the video games and now the Netflix show. Uhm it's so exciting to hear about everyone who's discovering the books for the first time. Everyone's first read is so magical and so exciting. Uhm and as we're here on Blood of Elves, you know, on the — really, this is the chapter that you know, sets up the rest of the saga, um so I'm excited to get to it with you both today. That felt like a very natural transition to the ins of the chapter but I'd love to talk to you guys more about um everything with the Hanza and stuff, so that listeners can get to know you better. So famously and infamously, you are our resident dungeon master and game master here with the Hanza. Could you tell us a little bit about how you became a DM, like what brought you into D&D, and um what Dungeons and Dragons has been like with our international community?

GARY: Yeah. So I started playing D&D, as many do, when you get into college, and you just get those free life experiments and you, you just go out and you find all kinds of freeing things. No, I actually found that from a Twitch stream too. Uhm, as you'll find out, I watch a lot of Twitch, like the number one game on Twitch at the time was D&D and I'm like, “What the heck?! Really? A board game is the number one on Twitch?” So I clicked it and because it was like Tuesday afternoon, and it was recording of a show called Critical Role, big D&D show. And there was a guy there playing, who's this huge, huge dude. Really athletic dude, kind of like me. And I'm like, wait, this guy plays D&D? I got to play D&D. This looks awesome. Then I got into D&D stopped working out and like most people, let the nerd phase take over my life. And now playing D&D five days a week for you crazy people in the Hanza. But really, uh, it's an amazing opportunity to be able to just play games every day, and plan for games every day. And you guys have really helped me a lot this year. Give me something to look forward to because back in February, my basement flooded, like there's a lot of flooding going on in Germany right now and I feel really bad for them, because I know what that's like, because I lost a lot of stuff. And around that time, I was starting to get games going. And so giving a routine to my daily schedule, as I moved out was very nice. And you know, apparently the only thing that bites people as much as the Witcher books and games is D&D with this group. So, that's what's going on right now with all D&D stuff.

ALYSSA: Yeah. One of our dear friends in the Hanza, Kyle, frequently says that, you know, the Witcher is what brought everyone together, but D&D is why everyone has suddenly stayed and becomes so active. Dan, you also play D&D with one of our groups. We have four groups, two Americas groups and two European groups. What has been your experience with getting to know members of our community here on the discord as well as through Dungeons and Dragons?

DAN: Well, I would say overall, it's quite fun experience because first of all, I mean, the Witcher part it's like our, you know, our forums for people to talk about the Witcher, but oftentimes, it's like, you know, on Discord, you kind of like a quick conversation and then leave and it's done instead of like, in a message board like, for example, Reddit, it's sort of like, hey, I know this person, we both have a different opinion on a certain character in The Witcher, for example, let's have a discussion, and it's done or something like but you also still can have a discussion the next day about another character or about what is the best book? That's what I always liked about the Hanza. Ah, yeah, D&D wise, I would say, it's quite funny, for example, certain peoples in the discord I would never have a conversation with nowadays with D&D I suddenly have an entire campaign with them. So it's, it's quite in contrast, you know.

GARY: No, Dan. You hit it right on the head, because one of the great things about this community is that there are discussions, because so much of online talks these days are, it's my opinion, and you're wrong. And I feel like we don't just talk about the Witcher in the Hanza, we talked about Marvel and other media, other entertainment, other things that are going on, but it always is a discussion. And we're all able to put points out there. But at the end of it, we don't we are all mad that somebody else doesn't have the same opinion as us. And I gotta credit Alyssa, for having a discussion based podcast, building that community around that has really enveloped the other talks that we have so we're very civil when we talk to each other, which is really nice.

DAN: Yeah, I totally agree, it works. I mean, there are some people on the Discord who, strangely enough, like Nilfgaard? But if for example, if I talk with them, I mean people like for example, on Reddit about Nilfgaard, I think like well, who are you like random idiot that has an opinion? I mean, this now because in the Discord you kind of know the people, it's way more like actually a discussion like, ah, this is your opinion, this is my opinion, we maybe can try to convince each other about our opinions you know. It's more we disagree but then a civil kind of way instead of like Internet, anonymous, curse words.

GARY: Mm hmm. And we still like the Witcher by the end of it. It’s what ties us together.

ALYSSA: Yeah. And, um you know, I think that brings us nicely to the actual chapter, in which we spend most of the chapter listening to people discuss and debate, strategize ah from all these different factions on the continent, which makes for you know, a deceptively slow read, and then you actually get to the content and suddenly, this is the bulk of the plot for all Blood of Elves. Today, we'll discuss Blood of Elves Chapter 6, which carries us across the continent as its inhabitants prepare for war. This chapter is so deceptively slow. Like we get a roundtable discussion from the north. We get a roundtable discussion from the south. We hear Geralt is plotting something. Mages are plotting something. And with all of this, uh discussion, it seems like it's going to be slow. But when you look at everything that has happened in Blood of Elves, Blood of Elves is definitely a foundation for the rest of the saga. If you look behind Chapters 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 and ahead to Chapter 7, nothing like really happens in any of those chapters that pushes the plot forward with as much force as everything that happens in Chapter 6. I know that Gary and I've had a few discussions where when I assigned Gary this chapter, he was like, oh, that's the boring one with the kings. And then we went back and read it and it was like, oh my god, everything happens here. So the chapter opens with a second interlude from Nicodemus de Boot, who was the first Chancellor of Oxenfurt Academy. These interludes, they've been sprinkled throughout the book. We saw a previous one from him about stupid people very early on in the book, and uhm now we're revisiting him again here uhm after seeing his bust on the Oxenfurt Academy in Chapter 5. Here, Nicodemus de Boot says, “Murder is always murder regardless of motive or circumstance. Thus, those who murder or who prepared to murder are malefactors and criminals, regardless of who they may be: kings, princes, marshals or judges. None who contemplates and commits violence has the right to consider himself better than an ordinary criminal because it is in the nature of all violence to lead inevitably to crime.” And this is from his book, Meditations On Life, Happiness and Prosperity. Did either of you have any thoughts on this interlude before we jump into the chapter? Is there a reason why you think that Sapkowski might have chosen to lead this chapter with this quote?

GARY: Well, he says, uh, “None who contemplate and commit violence can consider himself better than an ordinary criminal.” So wonder how much plotting of, uh, killing there's going to be?

DAN: Well, what I also think is interesting is he sort of even not just saying like, hey, everyone who wants to commit violence is a criminal, but he specifically also mentions like kings, princes, marshals and judges. Most of the society where, I would think has sort of way, more like this sense of hierarchy, that he sort of like questions, the authority basically of the kings to say like, “Hey, you can't kill people as well, because killing is a crime” is, I would say, a very brave and extraordinary thing to say in a role like the Witcher, you know?

ALYSSA: Yeah. And, you know, historically Sapkowski has used these interludes to obviously frame everything that will come in the next chapter. We're kind of walking into the rest of Chapter 6 with like, alright, well, we're deciding that, you know, there's no moral correctness in murder. And yes, that will certainly color the rest of the chapter to come. In the first section of the chapter, five monarchs from the Northern Kingdoms — Vizimir of Redania, Demavend of Aedirn, Foltest of Temeria, Henselt of Kaedwen, and Meve of Lyria — meet in secrecy at Hagge Castle to strategize the northern response to unrest around the continent and the looming threat of war. This is also a very famous chapter, um, this is the first time that we're really meeting a lot of the kings from around the continent. We had met Foltest of Temeria in the very first short story, The Witcher back in The Last Wish. And that was the story with the striga, and we're seeing him here again, you know, however, many years later, with the rest of his company, all kings, and we find them here in Hagge Castle, currently deciding what to do about Nilfgaard, which is the big pressing question. There are kind of three phases of their discussion. First, a lot of them voice their concerns about what is happening around the continent. Specifically, they are afraid that Nilfgaard is going to get past the Yaruga river that runs a natural border between the North and the South. They're concerned about the Scoia’tael attacking Kaedwen and Temeria. And the Scoia’tael are who we saw in Chapter 4 at the caravan. They're concerned that Nilfgaard is flooding the local markets with goods and destabilizing the economy. They're concerned about a possible uprising of their constituents, in that they might think that life with Nilfgaard is better than it is under the current regimes. So they're afraid of Nilfgaard spreading propaganda.

DAN: One thing I really think is quite interesting when we're reading this part about their concerns, for example, about Nilfgaardian backed uprising is because they're talking about, for example, the nobles are being promised titles in the provinces, the merchant corporations are being bought, you know, the common people are being incited to revolt by the priests, because somehow it's a better life with Nilfgaard. But at the same time, I would say it's one of the kings also mentions, recently, there have been a lot of rebellions and uprisings in the Nilfgaardian provinces. So it's sort of like, in the same time, you see already Nilfgaardian’s propaganda machine working, because if you look at it, like, why are those people rebelling if Nilfgaard is doing so great? But it isn't about if Nilfgaard’s great, it's about Nilfgaard saying that it's great to people who have yet to be conquered.

GARY: Yeah, always looks greener on the other side.

ALYSSA: Mm. And I think, you know, we had talked about this in a previous discussion on the podcast as well, just like having that multi armed approach. I think, Geralt had put it this way, when he was on the boat, like Nilfgaard is taking with gold what it couldn't take with its arms. They're really doing a full attack, um not just with their armies, but also like it says, destabilizing the economy and also just like making the rabble concerned. It's smart. It really is, to conduct warfare in that way. Because then when Nilfgaard comes in, again, as the kings say, they'll be seen as some sort of savior, and that Nilfgaard like might be welcomed if they don't play their cards right. One of the quotes from the section that sticks out to me is uh when they talk about Nilfgaard spreading propaganda, the kings speak about the flood of like clerics and mystics that have suddenly come in, like spouting stuff about Ithlinne’s Prophecy and the savior from the south and all that, you know, they kind of go back and forth about like, you really shouldn't be making martyrs out of clerics like that's exactly what Emhyr wants. And Foltest says something really interesting here, you know, he says that he hasn't really done anything about any of these mystics, because he says, what sort of dignity or authority would it be anyway, referring to his own rule, if it could be undermined by the squealing of some deranged fanatic? So to an extent they do seem fairly confident in their holds on their regions, but at the same time, you know, they're still playing with powers that are equal to their’s, certainly. That quote stood out to me specifically, from Foltest.

GARY: Well I would say, and it will come back later, but realize that the whole Ithlinne’s Prophecy that is a elven prophecy, so wait to see what the Kings come up with to solve this elven prophecy being spouted in their land.

ALYSSA: So as they kind of start voicing their concerns, they don't really know what to do. They keep going back and forth on like, well, we can't really attack them but you keep telling me not to take a risk but da-da-da-da-da and they're just kind of yelling at each other. All of a sudden, the four kings turn toward the only woman in the room, Queen Meve of Lyria. And uhm there's this moment where she's just like, why are you guys looking at me like that? They're like, you're so beautiful and so wise and she's like, shut up. And she completely changes the tone of the room. It's fantastic. Uhm if you are into the video games and you're into Gwent, Meve is the character that leads Thronebreaker, the Gwent game, but we are first introduced to her here and she's a phenomenal character. Once the kings all turn to her and asked and finally asked for her opinion, she gets a little anecdote about winters at Lyria then she proposes a show of strength. With the help of the kings that are sitting around the table, they're just like well, what if we let the Skelligans attack the Nilfgaardians and we finally let the armies at Dol Blathanna and at the dryads. Non-human blood will let all over the continent. They're kind of getting excited about this, this possible like, just pure bloodbath of non-humans and Nilfgaard. And then Foltest counters that with recapturing Cintra from Nilfgaard. They're just like, that's not really possible, what are we going to do, like Nilfgaard already has it, there's no reason why we need it, and they kind of go back and forth on like, no, Cintra is a symbol. We would not have won Sodden without Calanthe’s martyrdom, without what Cintra had meant to everybody prior to Sodden, because apparently, the northern forces and Nilfgaard were equal at the time and no one could have predicted that the North would have stomped them so hard at that battle. As they're proposing a war with Nilfgaard and the opportunity to take Cintra back, Henselt and Vizimir pointed out that attacking Dol Blathanna and the dryads at Brokilon and Nilfgaard is not going to be backed by many of the other kings because they all signed a truce. And it's not going to be backed by the mages either because the truce had initially been proposed by Vilgefortz of Roggeveen. The kings voiced concerns about Vilgefortz as well as the mages. Notably, none of the mages are here, and they're kind of doing this all in secrecy. Meve again visits the fact that the Cintrian survivors are waiting for Ciri despite assumptions that she's already dead. And they go back and forth on like, well, if we caught her, who would we marry her to, who at this table or who not at this table would get Cintra by marriage to Ciri. I feel like this is very long. This is a lot of exposition.

GARY: Yeah, a lot of stuff.

DAN: I'll say at first glance, it’s absolutely stupid. If you think about it, they want to do a show of strength, but the show of strength is meant against Nilfgaard. For example, why does Nilfgaard care if all the non-humans are slaughtered? I mean, it's, it's a strategy, of course, because a lot of people are getting killed. But it's not what Nilfgaard cares about. Nilfgaard cares about Nilfgaard. It only uses them as propaganda —

GARY: Mm hmm.

DAN: — I mean, sort of like bit of raiding along the coasts, it can be a bit hurtful for the Nilfgaardian economy, I mean, the Skelligans have been raiding for the last three years since the Battle of Sodden. It wouldn't even be really a show of strength. It would be more like saying, “Hey, watch out. I really got strength, you know, I'm not going to attack. I promise, I got strength.” In my opinion, this strategy to take Cintra makes way more sense with the show of strength strategy.

GARY: Mm hmm. It's a lot of posturing by the monarchs, especially Foltest. If you read this chapter, he says, like “if the non-humans want war, they will get it through Foltest of Temeria. I have always been an advocate of mutual agreement and coexistence, but they prefer a test of strength, and we'll see who's stronger.” It's, it's like you're making up that they want a test of strength. They don't care how strong you are. Let's show them how strong we are by destabilizing our own country. I imagine that comes a lot from the author, Sapkowski. I imagine he saw a lot of that with the Soviet Union, because obviously, they couldn't go to war with the person across from them because the world would have ended. So how do we do that? Let's destabilize our own countries. Let's, let's put our own people down and show how strong we are. Instead of going with the let's unite all of us together, it's let's put a group of people down, and in this case, got to be the nonhumans.

DAN: Yeah, for sure. And, with for example, the Soviet Union, that's I would say it's quite comparable with the, I think the Hungarian uprising when the Hungarians tried to secede from the Warsaw Pact and the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union just sent the entire army of tanks and professional military against uh citizen uprising in Budapest, which of course was just like, okay, so what have we learned, uh, the Soviet sound like uprisings and like to kill civilians, like it wasn't really a show of strength, more like weakness, because like in The Witcher, they tried to solve something with violence. Violence that wouldn't need violence to be solved, you know,

ALYSSA: You know, I think the thing though, I don't know if they're taking into account and maybe they are, you know, maybe they do or don't understand the strength of their own armies. But like, for this show of strength to happen, that still requires a sense of that sacrifice on their end, like they would be thinning out their armies just for that display. And they're hitting them, you know, presumably at certain points, right? Dol Blathanna, the Valley of the Flowers, Brokilon where the dryads are, taking care of Scoia’toal skirmishes around Temeria and Aedirn, as well as like along the coast where Skellige can attack. But you know, Nilfgaard is enormous. They have the entire South and they've conquered the entire South. So like, what are these in the grand scheme of things? And presumably all of this will kind of work its way up the chain, Nilfgaard will find out. But is that human sacrifice on the Northern Kingdoms part really worth it and would it really have the effect that they want? Aside from just breaking everything out into full out war and genocide.

GARY: Yeah, it's very ignorant and short sighted by these kings who obviously want a solution, right, So they look to a person, they say something and then they're like, yes, that let's go with that! There was never a second option. They never discussed the second option. But imagine if they said, “Let's get the elves on our side. Imagine what having 300 years of experience would be to have.” But they don't say that. Let's say, let's do the easiest method. Let's kill them. Let's show how strong we are by killing people. That also takes us back to our thing by Nicodemus de Boot. No matter where you bring up murder, it's murder. You're not any better, kings, queen, by bringing up murder and using that because it is a crime. And in this case, it's against humanity.

ALYSSA: It brings back that like famous quote, the exact phrasing of it is slipping my mind. So I'm just going to paraphrase. But it's basically about how, you know when world leaders decide for war, they're not the ones that pay, it's the people who are, you know, conscripted and whose lives are lost and the actual weight of war never or rarely, actually impacts the people who are in charge. At least, you know, from an American perspective, you see that a lot when Administrations, Congress decide send Americans to war.

DAN: You know, those are things that maybe might add to what you just said, Gary about murdering and just you know, is that befriend the Elves is the first of all you see, when they go on that caravan, right, you know, they're friendly dwarfs. Like maybe as, mercenaries or as fronteira soldiers, there are people who are willing to fight, non-humans who are willing to fight, for the Northern realms. But if suddenly an army of soldiers walks into a city and says, yeah, yeah, we are going to kill non humans, because some of them in the forests are fighting guerrilla war, then you're just losing the support of all the non humans, which in the end, is exactly what Nilfgaard wants, instead of in their own realms, protecting themselves, they are actually alienating everyone who was still on the side, you know?

GARY: Yeah, totally true. Like, you're throwing away precious manpower in your point, because Nilfgaard is massive, and you need everyone on your side, and even letting one dwarf go is like a detriment to your group.

ALYSSA: You know, eventually the counter point comes right. They're getting very excited about this possible show of strength, specifically toward the nonhumans and Nilfgaard, at least between their five kingdoms. And then Henselt and Vizimir point out that, you know, attacking is going to break that truce that they all already signed after the first Nilfgaardian war. So after the first Nilfgaardian war, after Sodden, they all had signed a truce that was set up and, and facilitated by the mages and by, specifically, Vilgefortz of Roggeveen. And Henselt and Vizimir point out that attacking as aggressors is going to break this truce. And if they do that, they're not going to get the backing of any of the other kingdoms within the North, and they're not going to be backed by the mages. So they're kind of at a loss for what to do at this point. It's interesting to know, specifically, that they're concerned about the mages, and that they, they start to show a lot of concern here and doubt about Vilgefortz, specifically. And we haven't met Vilgefortz yet, I don't think. We'll meet him later in this chapter. But we haven't met him yet.

DAN: It's been fascinating because there's talking about like if, apparently Vilgefortz led the mages into battle, for sake of northern realms, in a battle. I mean, like you can already start in Something More in Sword of Destiny. It's apparently the addition of the mages in that battle was really defining the chance of success for the Northern realms.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

DAN: First impression, I would say of Vilgefortz is like ah, so he's like a military leader, but at the same time, they're also mentioning like, hey, he wants permanent peace, which should not lead to another war anymore, which I think also is quite interesting. So he did lead at least the mages into war. But now he’s also sort of like, okay, we fought the war. Now we're done.

ALYSSA: Yeah. And I think positioning yourself as both a wartime leader and a peacetime leader is probably so strategic on his part. Again, like I feel like there's just like a random quote about, uhm but it's better to be a soldier in a garden than a gardener in a war, like that kind of thing? And I feel like if Vilgefortz, if this person, this mage, is able to prove himself as both a wartime and a peacetime leader that just like puts him on another level of strategy and importance within the continent. And when we meet him later, he probably knows that.

ALYSSA (VOICEOVER): Before we get to the rest of the discussion between our five monarchs, we’re going to hand it over to Lars from WitcherFlix for recent news on the Netflix shows. When we come back, Garrison, Daniel, and I will continue our discussion of Blood of Elves, Chapter 6.

“Tidings from Toussaint”

[“Tidings from Toussaint” theme music by MojoFilter Media]

LARS FROM WITCHERFLIX: Hey, it's Lars from WitcherFlix and this is "Tidings from Toussaint". Welcome back everybody! Last week the Witcher spin-off anime movie Nightmare of the Wolf was released on Netflix and we were finally able to return to the Continent again. It was a wild ride and successfull: It rose to second place on the list of most-watched movies on Netflix worldwide during its release week.

Of course, in its release week there were a handful of interesting interviews with the movie's writer Beau DeMayo. In a livestream with Vortex Central, for example, he talked about the overall feel he was going for with Nightmare of the Wolf. He said: “My intention with Nightmare of the Wolf was to have it feel like the question mark on [the Witcher 3] map. It starts out like a very small quest for Vesemir [...] but then suddenly you’re taking a boat to a medieval lighthouse for something that needs to be exorcised. I structured the movie to have that same kind of a sidequest feel."

On Twitter, Beau DeMayo did a very informative Q&A where he answered a number of fan questions—some of them very spoilery. He talked about how the whole project originally came about: "During season 1, Lauren (Hissrich, ed.) asked me if I’d be interested in writing and producing the anime. We discussed some potential ideas (Kaer Morhen massacre being our fave) and then Lauren was kind enough to trust me to steer the production from there both as writer and producer." In an interview for Screenrant.com, Beau also talked about how Nightmare of the Wolf and Season 2 of the Witcher main show are connected: "Yeah. I can't give spoilers, but I will say that both Season 1 and Season 2 are enriched by the anime. It's not needed but definitely recommended. And I do think there is a more complete story that you will get, having watched the anime. Again, that was probably one of the trickier things: making it something that stood on its own and felt significant to Witcher fans, but that if you didn't watch, you weren't going to go into Season 2 thinking you missed something. Like a, "Do we need to do a Previously On?" kind of thing. But I definitely think that for people who do watch it—both fans and non-fans, or animation fans and Witcher fans alike—it's going to enrich your experience of Season 2."

So, if you haven't watched Nightmare of the Wolf already, it is out now on Netflix!

But now let us move on to the Witcher main show: During a panel at the Television Critics Association press tour, showrunner Lauren Hissrich and actresses Freya Allan and Anya Chalotra talked a lot about Season 2 of The Witcher—and even about a possible Season 3. This is what Lauren had to say about the timeline, a highly debated topic for the first season, and what it will look like in Season 2: "What I did with that is we won't play with time as much, but still not tell completely linear stories. For example, Ciri's story moves back and forth in her head." Lauren also talked about the influence fan reactions had on Season 2: "I am constantly reading what resonates and what doesn't. (...) The thing I really react to is what people love, what people want to see more of. People really want to see more of Ciri and Geralt together, Geralt and Yennefer together. I think that part of my job is to listen to what the fans like, we have a lot of them and I want to make sure they enjoy it too." During the same interview, Lauren also tackles the question of a highly-anticipated Season 3. She said: "There has been no formal renewal. In fact, right now my focus is on Season 2. I mean, we have this airdate now, we're going to launch on December 17. There is still a lot of work to be done in post-production. So I'm back and forth between Los Angeles and London completing that, and that is just where all of our focus is right now, because we need a great Season 2 if we have a hope of having a Season 3." So let us keep our fingers crossed for a bloody awesome Season 2!

Anyway guys, that's it for me for today. I hope you all stay safe and well. We'll talk again in the next episode of Breakfast in Beauclair. Until then, thanks again for listening and good luck on the path!

[“Tidings from Toussaint” theme music by MojoFilter Media]

Discussion

ALYSSA (VOICEOVER): Hey everyone! Welcome back from the break. When we left off, five monarchs from the Northern Kingdoms—Vizimir of Redania, Demavend of Aedirn, Foltest of Temeria, Henselt of Kaedwen, and Meve of Lyria—were meeting in secrecy at Hagge Castle to debate the future of the Continent.

ALYSSA: Foltest’s point, all of these concerns considered, he counters with, you know, what if instead of this silly show, we recapture Cintra. All the kings debate this back and forth, and apparently Meve puts forward the information that Ciri has been seen among the refugees in I believe Kaedwen, and has since disappeared. So everyone presumed she was dead, but Meve puts on the table that no I think she survived. And suddenly the conversation shifts again. Meve notes that the Cintran survivors are waiting for Ciri despite assumptions that she's dead. They decide, well if we're going to take Cintra, we need to do so with Calanthe’s blood. We cannot do this on our own. The Cintrans are too proud. They will want their kingdom for themselves. So if we find her, who's going to marry her? They spend so long, just tearing each other down. They're so suspicious of each other and Foltest specifically, and yeah,uh they just, they go back and forth for a while debating who's going to marry Ciri.

DAN: Yeah, Foltest is really being bullied in this part of the chapter. Like he's like, yeah, I'm a noble guy and look at my noble features. I'm very nice. Don't want to kill Elves. Don't want to kill priests. I'm a fairly decent person. Wait! An empire? Me? No. I wouldn't want the next big Empire please, focus on someone else please. No —

ALYSSA: Yeah.

DAN: —no, please.

ALYSSA: They specifically note at one point that he turns beet red, and then very white in turn after being accused of wanting to, wanting to kind of sneak by and steal Ciri. And there's a few funny comments in this section as well. When they're going around, like trying to figure out who has sons or who's eligible for marriage, they asked Meve if she has anybody. And she's like, yeah, I have two sons. Maybe they're dead. Maybe they're not, but none of them is fit for the throne and they're both stupider than their father. And it's so funny. Just hearing just generally how competent she is and seeing how badass she is throughout the series. How genuinely silly her family must be by comparison.

DAN:I mean, King Vizmir for example says like, oh, Meve seriously, your husband, they're dumber than him, poor you.

GARY: Damn girl. You really have to put up with that?

ALYSSA: Yeah. You know, they don't get to a conclusion here. But the other thing that is snuck into this, um is that Vizmir of Redania, then asked the group about Rience or Ri-ence, whatever you want to say. This is significant for a couple of reasons. One, we obviously met Rience back in Chapter 1, when he was interrogating Dandelion looking for Ciri. We spent Chapter 5 with Geralt, uh, looking for him. Geralt, we learned, set a trap by being on the Malatius and Grock Company and was trying to bait Rience into coming out into the open. We also heard from two top Redanian officials Dijkstra, the spymaster over in Redania, as well as Philippa, one of the leading advisors to King Vizmir, that they knew about Rience, therefore, it totally makes sense that Vizmir of Redania is the one to bring this up to the rest of the kings. But he asks, he's like there's somebody else looking for this girl, and looking in such a way that you have to question their motives because they're just leaving a trail of corpses across the continent. Nobody knows who Rience is. He asks, and then they just glide the hell past it. But as a reader, you're just like, oh, shit, what?!

DAN: Interesting sort of moment because suddenly it's like for the readers like the first time like, okay, we know Rience is someone else’s lackey. This one was like, okay, okay, they're going to reveal who’s lackey he is no? Yes? No, come on, please tell us then here, like, you'll see that the next time.

ALYSSA: You know, at this point, as they're kind of going back and forth about like, who is eligible to marry Ciri, Demavend pipes up and he's just like, you know, who's eligible, younger than Foltest, and is unmarried? Emhyr, the emperor of Nilfgaard. And they freak out. They're just like, ohhhhhh, we didn't even think of that. And they realize that like, none of them are looking for Ciri. If Emhyr is the one who's looking for Ciri, and he finds her, then he will have control of Cintra by blood. He already owns the region purely through war alone, but like he wouldn't have to deal with rebellions. The Cintrans would actually follow wherever Calanthe’s blood went, and he would be hailed as the neighbor to the South rather than the Invader. And as soon as they realize that, they immediately propose infanticide. They propose killing Ciri. They're just like it's better to have her dead than to have her in the clutches of Emhyr. The close of the chapter, specifically, Vizimir of Redania says, “It is ugly, indeed, but the Lion Cub, if she has survived, must now die, for reasons of state. Gentlemen?” The section closes with, “The rain hammered against the windows. The gale held among the towers of Hagge Castle. The kings grew silent.” And we've heard this phrase before we've heard the phrase “The Lion Cub must die for reasons of state” without context. And I believe we heard it throughout Ciri’s dreams in Kaer Morhen in that kind of like smattering of collages of dreams. And um now we see where that has come from. And it's not great. It's, it's not good at all.

GARY: Murder. Again. It's their first option or well, in this case, it's kind of their second option because they're bickering, who's gonna who's gonna have to marry her? Oh, not me. Not me. Not your sons. Not them. Wait, what if she marries the enemy? And then I feel like they all look at the camera at that moment, like Parks and Rec. And they realize they have to kill her. It's, it's such, it's the bad option again. Yeah, I mean, think about it. If they get to her first, they wouldn't have to kill her. And they're like, well, we got to get to her first so we can kill her. But if you get to her first that you can choose her to marry her off to.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

DAN: I think that's also the problem because they don't trust each other enough to be like, okay, yeah, sure you watch over her until we fight if, won this war, everyone's like, okay, the person who finds Ciri is going to marry her or to one of his or her sons, and then that person will control Cintra. So it's like, you know, like a sort of like a Mexican standoff. They're all with pistols aiming at each other. But at the last second, they aim at the camera. That's kind of how it feels to me.

GARY: And it shows how distrusting they are of each other in the first place. Because at one point, Meve calls out Foltest for sleeping with some wom — like one of the Duchesses. She's like, what do you expect? What do you think I pay my spies for? And it's like, okay, all these people are, are backstabbing evil people to each other, too. But yeah, they all gonna want that throne. But then they realize the other group probably wants that throne as well. Like you said, not only will Cintra be with them, but likely Skellige would too because Skellige is allied to Cintra through marriage and things like that. And Crach an Craite earlier in the chapter, it says he's sworn like a blood oath of revenge against Nilfgaard because of all the deaths —

ALYSSA: Yeah.

GARY:  — So if it turned out Ciri was back, Crach an Craite, would be like, guess I'm fighting the other side now. Like —

ALYSSA: Yeah.

GARY: —so there's a lot of little political machinations that they get very Tywin Lannister there and they go, we must kill her. Let's go with the most evil option possible.

ALYSSA:  Yeah, I don't know if they're consolidating or centering themselves on something that makes sense for them, or if they have just become more unhinged throughout the conversation. And I genuinely cannot tell if this is worse than what they were originally proposing, or if this is the more logical approach, and I don't know if this comes back to like, the lesser evil kind of thing. Or, aw, man, I don't know. Like, when you're looking at, like continental war, like, I mean, I don't envy them for having to make this decision. But it's also like, it seemed quite, quite fast at the same time,

GARY: Right. Well, they're just as easily willing to kill all the Elves and Dwarves in their kingdom. What's a princess, right? What's a queen? He's probably very patriarchal. It's like what's, what's this princess? Kill her. Get rid of her.

DAN: I think it's also doesn't help it from the beginning of the chapter they already described, you know, having either a beer or wine or whatever, constantly drinking. So I kind of just, you know, imagine that it started like, right before the chapter starts they’re like all these, like wise and noble kings, like during this chapter, they're just getting more drunk and drunk and drunk, like, you know, like, if you're drunk, you make stupid suggestions. Like, you know, guys, you know what we gotta do, kill all the elves and everyone's like, just too drunk to think like, I got a better plan instead of like, kill all the elves? Yeah, yeah. Let’s kill the elves. And they’re like, yeah, but we don't want to kill the elves, we should kill just the princess. Yeah, let's kill the princess. Like, guys. Stop drinking.

ALYSSA: This is the worst game of “yes, and” ever. Oh man, I mean —

GARY: Oh no.

ALYSSA: —we’ll of course see how their plans play out. I think the biggest takeaway from this section is to note that the North is conspiring together, or at least this block of kingdoms is conspiring together. They considered a multi-front attack, and then quickly discarded that before focusing in on that key to victory, which they see as Ciri specifically, um and the need for her death. Dan, you had a bunch of notes here that I don't think we got to.

DAN: Maybe two, three small thingies, I think. One was, of course, they start in the chapter describing all the sort of military improvements that Nilfgaard has made between the last Nilfgaardian War and now. And then they're talking like, for example, they're like yeah, they killed all the generals and so many officers who's going to lead them now? And this reminds me, you know, like Sapkowski uses like I would say, three Empire/people to make Nilfgaard? One is, I would say the Third Reich aor the Nazis, the Roman Empire, and sometimes, Soviet Union. For example, Soviet Union used like in the period under Stalin before the Second World War, they had a Great Purge,in which many, many, many generals and other people were killed off or sort of kicked out of service, because they maybe could have conspired against Stalin. And in many ways, I would say that's quite comparable to this Great Purge that Emhyr did because I would say that's not a very typical thing to do so I think that's what Sapkowski is referencing.

ALYSSA: Mm hmm. 

GARY: It's interesting to me that it's that comparison, but for the Soviet Union it made them very weak, they had a lot of young generals that didn't really know what to do. A lot of them were just thrown in the position because they were the next rank down, they were not ready to be a general, like, at least in the case of the Soviet Union, they found out how bad that was when they tried to take on Finland, and had to sacrifice a lot to try and even get close to winning that war. I think, in the terms of the Roman Empire, there was one case of a decimation. Like we think of decimation today, people say, “Oh, they were decimated.” What that means is to kill a 10th of your people. I think it was Octavian or Octavius, one of these Roman emperors who commanded his army to kill 1/10 of his own army to instil that fear and respect. And you see, like, you want to compare it to those empires that's definitely another way to take it um because they lost a war. They lost this battle, kill a 10th of yourself, and it seemed to them that's how you re-instill this loyalty through fear.

DAN: Yes, that's kind of what I did at least if I remember it correctly. Decimation, at least, in Rome, what they did was, it was like, sort of normal rule at all. I think it's kind of weird. It's the normal rule. But if army unit that, think a cohort, would retreat from battle, like a tenth would be killed, but not not completely random. Because like the Romans had, like a decimal system. So like, soldiers in groups of 10. You like you had a group of 10 men and nine of them had to kill like the 10th guy. It certainly wasn't like a one time institutional decision. It was a standard law in the Roman army.

GARY: Yeah, but it was very rare. It’s that fear, if you fail, you're going to die. Like it's that fear that keeps them in, but it's very rare because you never just want to kill a 10th of your people. You never want to just kill a 10th of your army. That'd be wasting your army, right? In the case of Nilfgaard, he says everyone who failed me dies and so everyone says oh my god, I can't fail the Emperor. If I fail the Emperor, he's going to kill me too. So he's instilling that fear through murder you know, another murder. Go back to Nicodemus. They're not holier than you. They’re better than you.

DAN: He did mention kings and princes, but he didn't mention emperors. So maybe Nicodemus would say, yeah, you know, kings can’t kill people randomly, but emperors, yeah, sure go at it. I mean, like an emperor. That's way above us.

ALYSSA: The chosen child of the Great Sun.

GARY: Actually, there was a postscript. The White Flame is exempt. You know, not him. He's okay. He can kill whoever he wants.

DAN: It's quite interesting that in the end, they decided, of course, to go to war against Nilfgaard not by just, you know, taking army and running it straight into Cintra and being like, okay, we've done it. But they decided to do it by giving a vibe off that they're being attacked. So that they are actually the defending ones. They are talking about like, okay, we can maybe have some people clothed and dressed like Nilfgaardians, and they attack one of our border forts, and then it seems like the enemy attacked our border fort for it so we can declare war. As far as I know, in history, I think the most famous example of this happening was right before the Second World War when the Nazis went to war against Poland, by dressing some of their soldiers, like Polish soldiers. And then those disguised soldiers attacked a German radio station, killed or captured the people inside and then were like, during the radio transmission, “Hey, we're totally Polish people. We're declaring war to Germany right now. So yeah, Germany, go ahead.” And then yeah, World War Two.

GARY: There are endless counts of that type of, you know, finding a reason to go to war and let's say we’re the just people in that war, but I think if you go back to Nicodemus, you're planning to kill, you're not better. You're not more just in any way. You can lie to yourself all you want. Say that you're defending yourself. But you know, you're not.

ALYSSA: Again, like a theme that continually comes up on Breakfast in Beauclair is the thought that like you are always the hero of your own story. So no matter what side of the conflict that you're on, you're always going to think that you're doing the right thing as well.

DAN: Jokingly, I looked up if any of the king's names were like taken from something?

ALYSSA: Oh, yeah. Yeah, go ahead.

DAN: It's quite a mixed bag I say because, okay, the king Vizmir of Redania, what I found was, like, maybe some different letters were used in the Polish version, and apparently, the name Vizmir is also used for like a legendary Polish king like sort of progenitor whosort of fought and made sure that, you know, Poland existed, like he was one of the first sort of kings or lords of those people. —

ALYSSA: Mm hmm.

DAN: — They don't know the details, that Wikipedia wasn't Polish. And Google translates, of course, not the best, but that's what it's all of it. And Queen Meve of Lyria spelled differently in Irish but it's still pronounced the same way as Meve is in the Witcher. And it’s apparently like and was a mythological warrior Queen sort of semi-goddess person who was involved in lots of myths and stories. So I mean warrior queen is quite fitting with Queen Meve from the Witcher, I'd say. Then the last semi-normal one, King Hensalt, not Henselt, wasn't apparently, you know, like normal name. But you know hensel like Hansel and Gretel, you know the story of the children and the witch, of course, a German name. So maybe that's where Sapkowski got it from. And the last ones are really weird. I found a Foltest. I've looked around and it closest, something I could find was the name Folteste and that's a Romanian village so I don't think that's there's a connection there. And Demavend, couldn't find anything at all, either except the war Damavand and that's apparently a mountain in Iran. So yeah, it's certainly not everything has a background, but then again, it's also nice to see that Sapkowski made up his own names, I think.

ALYSSA: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, we had heard from Anita and Karolina on our previous episode that the name Cirilla had come from a time where he was like trading goods. And it was the name of a jacket like somewhere in like Europe. And it seems like he pulls inspiration from just about anywhere.

DAN: Yeah, for sure.

ALYSSA: Well, thanks for looking that up. That's so interesting.

DAN: It is mostly weird, but it’s for sure interesting.

ALYSSA: Mm hmm.

DAN: Uh, I just realized something very stupid.

ALYSSA: Mm hnmm.

DAN: Those kings still don't have a solution for what happens with Cintra after they win the war?

ALYSSA: No.

GARY:Nope.

ALYSSA: They don’t.

GARY: They never come up with a solution.

ALYSSA: No. So I mean, presumably, if they kill Ciri, least Nilfgaard can't get her and then we can get on to everything else that we need to do in order to win this war, but she will not be an unknown factor. She'll be off the playing field at least. Um, so yeah, not, not a concrete solution. And barely even the first steps of a plan. So...

DAN: I mean, you can already imagined like the war's over and you see these five kings constantly, like, discussing what happens. In the meanwhile, Vissegerd standing in Cintra? Oh, well, while no one's looking. I'll make myself the king.

ALYSSA: Yeah. And Vissegerd, he's a character that's mentioned in passing here, who is at the head of the remaining Cintran forces and we’ll, you know, get an opportunity to learn more about him eventually. But at the moment, they spend a lot of time saying, like, he's just a tool. He's just a pawn. He's not a partner in this. Um so we get an earful about what the Kings think of the remaining Cintran forces.

ALYSSA (VOICEOVER): Before we continue with the rest of the chapter, we’re going to end our discussion here. Join me, Garrison from the US and Daniel from the Netherlands in the next episode of Breakfast in Beauclair as we continue our discussion of Andrzej Sapkowski’s Blood of Elves, Chapter 6.

Outro & Credits

[Breakfast in Beauclair theme music by MojoFilter Media]

ALYSSA: Thanks for joining us at the breakfast table! For show notes, transcripts of each episode, and a complete list of our social platforms and listening services, head over to breakfastinbeauclair.com.

Breakfast in Beauclair is created by Alyssa from GoodMorhen. It’s hosted by Alyssa with the “Tidings from Toussaint” News Segment by Lars from WitcherFlix. The show is edited by Alyssa with music by MojoFilter Media.

Breakfast in Beauclair is produced by Alyssa in New York City with Luis of Kovir, The Owner of The Churlish Porpoise, Arix the Godling, Katie (The Redhead of Toussaint), Jacob B., Ayvo of Gulet, Bee Haven of the Edge of the World, Charlotte from Vengerberg Glamarye, RedKite, The Original Roach, Codringher’s Cat, Dustin, Libby, Clare Odell, Jennidy Mundilovitch, Brett from California, Wolf, Corey from the US, John of Ryblia, Sebastian von Novigrad, Tom from Australia, and Jill Cate, The Tabby Witch.

Special thanks to Garrison and Daniel for joining us for this episode and our international hanza for their support.

Transcriptionist: Sheena Esguerra
Editor: Krizia Marrie Casil

 

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