Ep. 18 — "Four Marks" from Netflix's The Witcher (Part 2)

Jess B. from the US and Robin from the Netherlands return with Alyssa from GoodMorhen for the second half of our discussion of “Four Marks”, the second episode in season one of Netflix’s The Witcher. Very important bits include: an educational conversation about feminist film theory in relation to our protagonists, the expression of emotions and female pleasure, the realization of complex characters and the relationships between them, a deep dive into the episode’s soundtrack with insights directly from composer Sonya Belousova, and assumptions about a certain blue tank top.

This episode is available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, and Stitcher.

Transcript

Cold Open

ALYSSA: I’m trying to think if there's anything else. I feel like we recovered quite a bit.

JESS: Damn, did we cover a lot this episode. This is a beefy episode. I’m so proud of this.

ALYSSA: It is.

JESS: No, it’s beefy like Henry Cavill. No. I’m sorry that was so rude. No. No. No.

Introduction

[Breakfast in Beauclair theme music by MojoFilter Media]

ALYSSA: Welcome to Breakfast in Beauclair, a global Witcher Podcast. My name is Alyssa from GoodMorhen, and I’ll be your host as you, I, and our international hanza accompany Geralt of Rivia and his destiny, Cirilla of Cintra, across The Continent.

[Welcome]

Hope this episode is finding you all safe and well. I’m currently with my folks and ended up staying an extra week, due to the American holiday weekend and… didn’t bring my podcasting equipment with me. So we’re making do with my phone microphone for today’s intro and outro.

[Donation Time]

It’s the first episode of July and our very first quarterly donation! A few weeks back, I mentioned I’d be starting a quarterly donation of $1 for every patron to an organization chosen by our community for the first episodes of January, April, July, and October. Our organization for this quarter was recommended by Charlotte from Vengerberg Glamarye, who donated a portion of her spring proceeds from her shop to Doctors Without Borders in honor of Essi Daven from “A Little Sacrifice”.

Doctors Without Borders provides medical assistance to people affected by conflict, epidemics, disasters, or exclusion from healthcare. Their outreach stretches across the globe, yet deeply focuses on local communities—an approach that I feel strongly aligns with the principles, values, and spirit of Breakfast in Beauclair.

At the time of upload, we currently have 41 patrons on Patreon, which means $41 for the organization today. And for this first donation, I matched it for a total of $82 sent to Doctors Without Borders!

[Patron Announcements]

On that note, shout out to all of our 41 lovely patrons as well as our current producer-level patrons: Luis of Kovir, The Owner of The Churlish Porpoise, Arix the Godling, Katie (The Redhead of Toussaint), Jacob B., Mahakam Elder Joe, Julie, Sylvia of Skellige, Jamison, Ayvo of Gulet, Bee Haven of the Edge of the World, Jacob Meeks, and Sebastian von Novigrad.

I’ll be back to sharing our new patrons who have joined or upgraded since February in the next episode!

Episode 18 is the third of three episodes that I’m donating to the community along with it’s bonus content. To access the free bonus content for this episode, head over to patreon.com/breakfastinbeauclair after Saturday, July 4th.

[Episode Details]

As for this episode, Robin and Jess return for the second half of Episode 102 “Four Marks” from Netflix’s The Witcher. Join us for an educational conversation about feminist film theory in relation to our protagonists, the expression of emotions and female pleasure, the realization of complex characters and the relationships between them—and that’s just the first half—then we discuss the production elements, take a deep dive into the episode’s soundtrack with insights directly from composer Sonya Belousova, draw comparisons to the original source material, and make assumptions about a certain blue tank top.

Just a quick note, I do refer to an “Episode 19” frequently throughout this discussion. When I do, it’s always in reference to Episode 104 of the Netflix series, “Of Banquets, Bastards, and Burials”. With the possibility of two-parters this season, it’ll be pushed back to Episode 20 or 21 and maybe also Episode 22.

In our mid-episode news segment, “Tidings from Toussaint,” Lars from Witcherflix shares exciting insights from production, the writers room, and tidbits from a neat chat between Henry Cavill and Sir Patrick Stewart.

Without further ado, let’s get to the discussion for The Witcher Episode 102, “Four Marks” (Part 2).

Discussion

[Breakfast in Beauclair stinger by MojoFilter Media]

ALYSSA: Hey, everyone, welcome back from the break. I'm here with Robin and Jess discussing Four Marks from Season I of Netflix's The Witcher. When we left off, we had broken down the plot of the episode. And, now, it's time to dive into the key points of themes that interested us most. For this discussion, we’ll specifically focus on the role of female characters in film and television and in the Witcher show. We'll talk about production, including the music, costumes, and sets. And we'll also dive into comparisons to the books. So, for this first topic of discussion, we're going to hand it over to Robin to talk about female characters in film and television and break down how it’s done on the Witcher show.

ROBIN: Yeah. So, I wrote my thesis from November ‘til January. It was about female characters in film. I chose four Dutch movies that are about the Second World War. And I was very curious about what changed between the second feminist wave in the 70s and now in terms of how female characters are treated in those movies. I had a general feeling that female characters and how they've been portrayed that that is not a linear development. That has been wavy over the past decades. So, it's not a nice linear development upwards. So, I was really curious to see whether that held up when you looked at movies from different decades really.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROBIN: And, yeah, as with every kind of research, you kind of have to know what field you're in. And, in my case, that was feminist film theory. So, yeah, you have to use like concepts and think about the concepts that they already established and how you can work your way through that. And I had some concepts that, when I was watching The Witcher show and saw Yennefer's character, I was like, “Oh, wow. That's really applicable, actually, in what I was trying to say in my thesis.” So, yeah, that's why I really love to talk about this.

ALYSSA: Mhmm. Would you be able to break down some of that feminist film theory for us and what some of the major points might be before we jump into understanding how those things are applied?

ROBIN: Yeah. So, feminist film theory really started from point of psychoanalysis that comes from Sigmund Freud. So, that's the guy with Oedipus complex, sexual desire theory. And feminist film theory use this to conceptualize the idea of the male gaze or the voyeuristic gaze. And this basically means that, by using cinematography, which is camerawork and editing, for instance, the female body is objectified and is made into some kind of a passive spectacle. So, a woman is to be looked at in the movie. So, for instance, how this is done is using POV shots, point of view shots, or over shoulder shots. So, the viewer sees what the male character sees. Therefore, the viewer identifies themselves with this male character. And the viewer is then invited to view this woman from the male perspective. What the narrative problem is that these film theories saw is that the female character is only something to be looked at. And it's not really a fully rounded character. She hasn't got a fully rounded personality.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROBIN: And she's only there to be a sexual object for our male main character. And this is something that feminist film theorists saw. And that was slowly changing when the second feminist wave made their way around the world and changed culture here and there. Laws are changing. Women were becoming more emancipated in the sense of they were working more. But then, in the 90s, when that second feminist wave had passed, feminism became normal. The things that they strove for in the second feminist wave, they succeeded with what they wanted in part. And it was recognized. But, therefore, people thought, like, “Oh, we don't need it anymore,” because they've reached the goal of more equality for women, you know. For instance, like the birth control became more of a thing and working hours – women weren't the household maids anymore all the time in the 80s. So, people felt like, “Okay. So, feminism is done. And, therefore, it's kind of obsolete. It's not necessary anymore.”

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROBIN: And this is what feminist theorists called post-feminism. Post-feminism is really an active process by which feminist gains of the 70s and 80s became undermined mostly in popular culture. And the way that they do this is really through what they called ironic knowingness and double entanglement. And it sounds all very difficult and very academic, and then that sort of stuff. But it basically means that in postfeminist media culture – so, from the 90s and the early 2000s, they started to use irony to basically try to have it both ways.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROBIN: To express sexist or homophobic sentiments in irony, and then say, “Oh, I didn't mean it. It was just a joke. You know, I didn't mean it that way.” And it's basically that filmmakers and people in the media are aware that they have a female audience.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROBIN: But they still find ways to objectify the female characters. And then I always have to think of Lara Croft or female superheroes who really throw punches and look awesome. And they look very emancipated and feminist, but then they usually have no personality. They're not a character and not really a person. And they – yeah. They – Lara Croft, for instance, has like really big boobs. So, you're like, “Mmm.” That's like the double situation of having it both ways. Of having that sexist way of portraying a female character while also having her seem emancipated. And the example that I had – the Dutch movie that I had was called Zwartboek, which basically means Black Book. I don't know if that's a term in English as well if you have a black book. It's like a book in which the betrayal and then conspiracy is written all down in like this little black book. And that's the evidence that they have. Yeah. That's why it's called that. And the story takes place in the Second World War. And it's about this Jewish woman called Rachel and about what she does in the story. She joins the resistance. Along the way, she meets a German Nazi general called Ludwig Müntze. And he's a high place Nazi officer who is actually – he comes across as quite nice. And he's also quite taken by this Rachel. And then she tells the resistance boss about this. And he thinks like, “Okay. We can use this.” He asked Rachel if she wants to use seduce him to get more information, and she does this. And, in the process, they fall in love. Müntze turns out to be actually kind of a good guy because he doesn't want to execute or torture people. And the problem here, which is something that is very different from American Hollywood movies because there's a lot of nudity in Dutch film. It's very much a style that they have. There are a lot of nude movies with a lot of sex in it. So, it's also sort of normal that that is in movies.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROBIN: But the point really is, is that it's never really about her character development. There's not something of a personal struggle for her that she grows into or learns about during the movie. Things just happened to her. She tries to deal with these things. And she tries to rescue people and tries to find information. So, he plants a microphone in an office. And it's really about her relationship with this Müntze – with this general.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROBIN: She seduces this Müntze. And it's all about her and her sexuality. She uses sex as a way of being a resistance woman. Joining the resistance means that what she's going to do, it's very much fundamentally tied in with sex really, and with being a pretty woman, and with being a very good seducer—

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROBIN: —and with being naked really and to show her on-screen by having a beautiful body. And the ironic knowingness here is that we see a female main character who joins the resistance and does cool and dangerous stuff like, uh, placing a microphone and getting information. So, surely, the feminists and the female audience are appeased, but then, at the same time, they facilitate this male gaze. The way is cleared for the male gaze because Rachel's character and her story are all about her sexuality and then the romantic relationship with Müntze. So, they have it like both ways. Both in its strong independent woman in the eyes of the filmmakers and some nudity from, you know, the actress’ beautiful body for the male audiences to enjoy.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROBIN: Her story and her resistance work is so fundamentally tied up with her being a woman and being beautiful and having sex that it kind of undermines the idea of having like female character—

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROBIN: —especially if you don't really talk about internal struggles or feelings and that you don't make her a fully rounded character.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROBIN: And, if you compare that to The Witcher, and the show, and the book, Yennefer is clearly like setup as Geralt’s love interests. That's just the way she set up in a book a bit. This is how she comes into Geralt’s life. And, because we identify with Geralt, this is the way I think we view her in the first place when we meet her. And what is very, very different from this Zwartboek film and the book and the show is that, in the show, we meet Yennefer from the very beginning of her own story. She's really a fully rounded character. And it's very intentionally done so. Because I saw an interview with Lauren Hissrich, the showrunner. And I wanted to read that quote. This is a very long quote, but I'll read it. She said, “But at the core of it are these really grounded characters. And the thing that excited me most when I went to pitch Netflix was telling the story of Geralt, the witcher but also telling the stories of Ciri and Yennefer, who are big players in the books but aren't quite given the same introduction as Geralt is. People ask me about the female characters a lot and the complication of them, but it's really just what real women are like anyway. It's strong in some circumstances, vulnerable in others, occasionally bold, occasionally bitchy, occasionally silent. To me, what I wanted to capture was the women before they were seen through the lens of anyone else. In the books, all the characters are met through Geralt. So, you get Geralt’s impression of them. And you get to learn to meet them. And I wanted the world to see who Ciri was first. I wanted to introduce the world to the three of them at the same time and allow each to flourish as characters on their own before they start meeting or interacting with each other.” What I really liked about that is that you make Yennefer her own main character and a fully-rounded character that stands apart from a male, in this case, Geralt’s perspective. So, she's her own character and the viewers identify with her from her perspective, not Geralt’s like in the books. And, if you go on in the show, there's also a sexual voyeuristic sight to her characters well, because, you know, she's shown naked as well. And I think that is just partially inspired like by the trend that Game of Thrones set in the fantasy genre. But what I think is just really important is that, in this case, it's just juxtaposed with her character being well developed. So, it's a lot less harmful.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROBIN: So, I think she's a character that breaks with that post-feminism because she's not just a pretty side character and a love interest or just a strong, independent female character we'll just throw in so it’ll appease the feminists. The show gives us time to get to know both Yennefer and Ciri on their own terms. We see Yennefer’s struggled with her self-worth with who she is and who she thinks she is. And we actually see her whole story happening before our eyes. So, we, as viewers, are able not to just only sympathize with her as you would with a friend.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROBIN: Because she tells us history in the books, but we now really see it happening in front of our own eyes. And we put ourselves in her shoes. We identify with her. And the difference with Zwartboek with the movie we talked about is that who Yennefer is and what she does in the story isn’t fundamentally bound up with her love relation or sexuality as Rachel's is. So, the whole story of Rachel in that movie is about her love and her sexuality. And, of course, like, the plus side for Yennefer's character is that there's a whole entire book series. And there's one-third of eight episodes devoted to her storyline. So, that's the tradeoff, of course, instead of just two hours of film that also involves other stuff to show.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROBIN: So, that's the plus side that you have, of course, if you have a whole TV series. And Yen’s storyline in this episode is about all her personal feelings and struggles. And she grows throughout the episode and mostly throughout the season, because this episode, at the very least, establishes those struggles and the feelings she has. They are set up here. And she deals with them throughout the rest of the season.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROBIN: And I think like her emotions and her fears are directly addressed and uncovered by Tissaia for instance. A lot of her scenes are about the struggle she has, the fear she has, her struggle with self-worth. And this episode isn't about her becoming a badass sorceress as we get to know her in the books, because this episode is about a young disfigured girl who feels as if she's not worth anything and could better be dead. Then slowly starts to gain some confidence, for instance, because she is accepted and deemed worthy by this motherly figure of Tissaia, because Tissaia kind of cares and worries for her.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROBIN: She gives her tough love. But, eventually, she shows that she does this because she really cares. And Yennefer find something in herself that grants are some power. And it's all are to do with what kind of person she is and what kind of personality she's have. And that's miles and miles better than throwing in some random female main character that can throw punches and looks awesome but has no personality at all, because I can't really relate to an energy blasting superhero in a super suit. But I can relate to a girl who struggles with her self-worth.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROBIN: And I really think that that is important for, like, filmmakers in the world to understand, to show the world that women are more than things to be looked at, but also have a lot of feelings and struggles and also grow. And, luckily, a lot of people really do know that, but if you don't show it in pop culture and in television – if you only show it in an ironized form, then you tell people that being a certain way is better than others. You also should feel bad about it if you have feelings. And that people don't really show women dealing with those feelings. And then some other ignorant people will never really understand.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROBIN: So, yeah, that's why I think it's really cool and important to talk about this stuff.

ALYSSA: Yeah, absolutely. And thank you for breaking that down in such detail for us.

JESS: Yes, thank you. I took notes. Not gonna lie.

ROBIN: Really?

JESS: Like, literally took notes.

ROBIN: Ooh.

JESS: Yeah, that was such a great explanation. And I mean just your background was a really good explanation. And then the tie into what we're watching now is really great.

ROBIN: Oh, thank you.

JESS: Yeah, I mean you made so many good points. I mean you could kind of see Yen as this kind of sexualized character. She's, you know, Geralt’s love interest, but it's balanced out by the fact that you do get to see her motivations, and her fears, and her struggles in addition to her being strong later episodes.

ROBIN: Yeah.

JESS: So, it's humanizing, right? Because you see a full idea of what a person is. They have highs. They have lows. They're not always perfect even if sometimes they may appear that way. They're a full person, not just a trope and that's what makes them relatable.

ROBIN: Exactly. Yeah. And because, like, it gives so much more meaning to, like – again, no spoilers. But, in episode eight with a huge fire moment, that, that gives so much more meaning to it, because, if you leave out this character that she has, you can't really show that fire in the same way. And it's just, “Oh, here's another female character who shoots some fire and it looks amazing.” Like, “Okay. Yeah, that's cool. But what does it mean, you know?” And it means so much more if you have that knowledge of her backstory behind it and also impact in that moment. So, yeah.

JESS: Yeah. It goes back to what we were saying before. Lauren decided to tell the story with a huge time jumps essentially. So, you really get to spend a lot of time with Yen rather than it just being Geralt’s plotline, and then Yen's, and then Ciri’s. If you spend an equal amount of time throughout each episode on each person, you really get to know them. So, I know a lot of people were a little bit confused about the hopping timeline, but I think it really works to the benefit of the character development. It's – it just makes such a huge difference.

ALYSSA: Yeah, I definitely agree with, with all of the above. I'll just check off all of the above. When it comes to, you know, how we see Ciri and Yennefer as you outlined, we don't really get to know them independently of Geralt in the books, which is what makes a lot of their character development onscreen particularly interesting because it's all of these events that we never saw in the books or events that were made originally for the Netflix show. One of the things that came to mind as you were talking about, particularly, like, the voyeuristic gaze, the male gaze, and the use of sexuality, jumping ahead one episode, there's a scene where Yennefer is having sex. But the interesting thing I think about that specific scene as opposed to, let's say, others that are out in the fantasy worlds and fantasy film is that it does seem to be, one, that Yennefer is the one that has control over the situation, and, two, it's for her pleasure, which I think is very curious and, obviously, lovely to see. There's a Spanish series on Netflix that I finished. The way that they approach female sexuality in the show Valeria – it's a very explicit show. But there's a lot of focus on female pleasure and on the female sexual experience that I had personally not seen anywhere else. So, that surprised me and I really enjoyed it. I thought it was important to see that onscreen. So, I find that really interesting here. This is one of the few sex scenes that we see throughout the series. There are a few, but we don't get a ton even though the one with Jennifer and Istredd in the next episode feels a little indulgent.

ROBIN: If a show or movie is very explicit, I kind of get uncomfortable. I’m like, “Yeah. Yeah. Move on. Move on.” Especially like – have you guys seen Outlander?

JESS: A little bit. Yeah.

ALYSSA: I have not, but I've heard things.

ROBIN: Yeah. Well, it just happens a lot. And you're like, “Umm. Do have to see this again?” Sometimes, it also doesn't serve the plot of and you’re like, “Umm.” But, if it serves a theme that you want to show female pleasure, I think that's important that that also gets screen time.

ALYSSA: Yeah. Again, jumping ahead to that sex scene – you know, we're recording this about, what, six months, seven months after the Netflix series aired. And, admittedly, the very first time that I watched it when the show premiered, I thought it was a little indulgent and, like, I don't think we really need the scene kind of way. But, with the perspective, I think, of the last like six, seven months and watching it again, it does seem to be an integral part of Yennefer's journey and our assessment of her self-worth.

JESS: I think that's interesting. The way that she's introduced in the series compared to how she's introduced in the books, it's definitely through his point of view. So, when we meet her in these episodes, it's totally different. We're really coming from her point of view. So, that's a huge difference, and I kind of like that.

ALYSSA: The actual one-to-one comparison between the short story Yennefer appears in The Last Wish and the television show Bottled Appetites that's going to be in another two or three episodes. But, for now, you know, the relevant part of the conversation is actually when we do meet Yennefer on the books. She's literally naked in bed.

JESS: Right. Yeah.

ALYSSA: And then her second scene is then taking a bath with Geralt, in which she is plotting to mobilize his sexuality against him. And, again, like, she's very much in control of that situation. She's definitely using her skill sets to her advantage, but it is very much focused on Geralt being really awkward and really uncomfortable through the whole thing and Yennefer militarizing her sexuality.

ROBIN: And I think that she becomes badass, and she becomes in control. It gets so much more meaning and depth or something when you know where she came from. It makes her seem even more badass.

JESS: Yeah, I think, in the book, he meets her as this beautiful sorceress. And he finds out later that she used to be a hunchback. Whereas, for us, as the audience watching the show, you are introduced to her as she was, as this person with physical deformities and a total social outcast. So, that's a totally different way of being introduced to someone, because it's the opposite from the way that Geralt meets her versus the way we meet her in the series. And I think that makes a huge difference when you really see who someone was in the past and see them grow and become that really cool badass versus the other way around where you see someone's a badass already and then, “Oh, side note, she used to be hunchback.” You know, it's a totally different impression that you get. It really makes you feel for her in a different way.

ALYSSA: Uh-huh.

ROBIN: Yeah.

ALYSSA: You know, the way that it's actually done on the books, it's a little silly. Like, I think they're scuffling around when they're battling the djinn in the final scenes. It's like he has a That’s So Raven vision moment.

JESS: Yeah.

ALYSSA: And just, like, spaces out for a second. And just, like, looks very deeply into her eyes and then realizes, “Oh, my god. She was a hunchback.” Like, it's, it's a little silly. But the thing is, I think, as both of you have said, we get this progression in our personal investment in Yennefer as an audience member. We actually get to go along on that journey. And, as you said Robin, it makes the emotional payoff toward the end of the season much greater for us. Would you be able to make any comparisons between how Yennefer’s story is handled versus any of the other development or non-development between other characters in the Witcher series? Some of the characters that we see over a long period of time in a number of episodes are Calanthe, Tissaia, Fringilla, and some of the other sorceresses.

ROBIN: Well, I think, with Calanthe, of course, with her, we also meet her, like, in her prime. Everything's so good. And she already has her husband and already also like a badass woman. And you get to see downsides to her personality. She can be very controlling and mean to Geralt.

JESS: Yeah.

ALYSSA: Yeah. Something I think that I noticed as I watched more episodes of Calanthe – and I think we'll jump into this in Banquets, Bastards, and Burials. I guess, as a blanket statement, I really do love Jodhi May’s interpretation of the character. I think she's fantastic. But we get, I think, a little more of Calanthe in the books, but I don't think that, in terms of like the writing and the plot that she was given, that she undergoes any real character development over the course of the series. As you said, we really see her in her prime. And she's very solidified in her personality. And we get to know different things about her. Things like her atrocities towards elves and nonhumans. And we get to know how stubborn she is. But she doesn't really go through any change of the course of the plot. Where do you put characters that, like, may have a lot of complexity but don't necessarily develop?

JESS: That's interesting you say that. As you were saying that, I was just thinking, “Yeah. Calanthe doesn't really have a lot of character development. Though, we, as the audience, do have a different relationship to her. And our view of her does develop throughout the show. So, even if she kind of remains the strong lioness figure, you do see her relationship with her daughter and her relationship with her granddaughter. Her real vulnerability is her love for her family. You do see her kind of being reluctantly in love with someone. And, so, she has this vulnerability of love – or not vulnerability that makes it seem like a bad thing. But, aside from being that strong person, she also has this deep love for her family. I guess what I'm trying to say is, though she doesn't really change as a person, our point of view of her does change throughout the series. So, I think she is kind of a well-rounded person in that sense.

ROBIN: And I think, also, the issue is that you only have, like, a few hours to spend with these characters. And you have to choose where you're gonna spend that time and with whom. And, yeah, I think that, if you want to spend a lot of time with Geralt, and Ciri, and, and Yennefer, who are, you know, at the end of the day, our main characters, then you got to make a trade-off with other characters. And that's why we always say the book is better because you have so much more time to spend with these characters. And you can spend a lot more time with these characters than in a TV show.

ALYSSA: Yeah, absolutely. I was just curious, as you're going through each of the definitions, to see what that difference could be and where some other characters that we know could fit in. For listeners, we're recording this the day after I recorded Episode 19. So, there's probably questions that come up two episodes from now that will be answered in this episode. So, we're doing our own time jumps, but, hopefully, like, the education arc and the things that we're learning are not only valuable for me but also for you.

JESS: Oh. And another thing, Calanthe, also, if we're talking about her, her lack of development, I guess you could say, Calanthe, I think, she really serves as a foil to Ciri. She's kind of, like, that preamble. She's her ancestor. And there's – already, in this episode, you see the way that Ciri reaches out and, figuratively, takes the hand of her elf friend and kind of crosses that line. Whereas, her grandmother, I don't think she ever would have done that. So, she really serves as a dramatic foil for Ciri. And that's interesting, because, a lot of times, women are used as contrast essentially to serve the character development of men. But, in this case, it's being used as a character foil for a woman or a young girl. So, I like that they’re kind of flipping that on its head, because, like Robin was saying, they're used kind of to serve the male's plotline. But, in this case, she's serving Ciri’s plotline. So, I think that's really cool.

ROBIN: Mhmm.

ALYSSA: Yeah. This is why I like the fact that you're here, Jess because you can bring, like, those points to a discussion like this. Oh, it's so nice. But I definitely agree. And, again, this is a discussion that we're going to revisit in Episode 19 when we talk about the relationship of Ciri to her grandmother's legacy and into parts of her grandmother’s legacy that she's completely unaware of. So, that's a discussion that we had yesterday that you'll hear in a month from when this episode airs.

ROBIN: Cool.

ALYSSA: So, yeah. So, look forward to that.

JESS: Yeah, keep on listening.

ROBIN: Yeah, I was also thinking about Tissaia, what you said Jess. That, also, counts kind of for Tissaia, because, first, when we meet her, she seems like a very cold distant person. And she already, like, in this episode, already makes that shift in perspective. I think, on one side, you can say, like, you have characters who you follow, who you're with, because they're your main character. And that you sympathize with, identify with, and then you learn with them the steps that they take. You learn what kind of character this is. So, you're inside the head of this main character, but you're not inside the heads of all these other people. So, I think, for instance, with Calanthe and Tissaia, that you not really follow their steps, but you change perspectives about them. And I think that's the same with Tissaia. At first, you meet her as a very cold woman. And she already changes within this episode. And you shift that perspective on her. And she actually turned into a little more of a mother figure to Yennefer. So, you see another side of her. So, I think you got like two different kind of character developments. You take every step of the way with them, and you learn, and they grow as you watch them. But they're also characters that have more depth that you get to know as you shift perspectives. I just think it's really well done with Yennefer and Ciri. The whole idea of having them before they meet Geralt is just so helpful of getting to know these characters in a different way. And, also, like, if you've read the books, then this is such a different way to experience this story. So, I think that's also very well done.

ALYSSA: I guess then my closing question for you guys, based on what you saw in Season I, is there a specific approach or anything that you'd like to see from these female characters in future seasons of the show?

JESS: You know, I actually would like to see them kind of just keep on doing what they're doing. I mean, when Robin was kind of going through the history of women and film going from that male gaze onto that post-feminist era, I like where we are here with the Witcher, what they're doing right now. And I think other shows could definitely learn from The Witcher. And I can't wait for 10 or 15 years from now when other people do their thesis and include something like The Witcher in their analysis, because I think it really is kind of bringing things forward. And I think, the show and other shows that might be like it, I think they're doing a good job. And I just want to see that keep going and turning tropes on their head and really flipping the script on what we expect from women in film.

ROBIN: Yeah, I totally agree. Also, because I think that there are still a lot of movies which think that, oh, if we just throw in a strong, independent woman who can fight – like, I keep thinking about Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman. Even though they were entertaining films, you could throw in a little more personality. Well, that's something you can connect with. And that's something they did really well here with Yennefer and also with Ciri. Like you said, Jess, I think a lot of filmmakers and showrunners, and people can really learn from what they've done.

JESS: Mhmm.

ALYSSA: You know, to be honest, I do know this is a point of contention for some vocal people on the internet. Some people, obviously, wrote back to Lauren with the belief that the story should not be structured this way. I do like the aspect that you suggests in that introducing the characters in this way flips the script on conventional tropes. And, you know, despite the fact that some people might not like it, the subversion here of these tropes is so in line with the spirit of what we see in Andrew Sapkowski’s original source material. There are so many times in the short stories and in the saga with small things where he starts to flip the script on fantasy tropes and larger things where he's flipping the script on real-world politics policies, the way that we conduct ourselves, race relations, women's right to choose. He addresses all of these things, and he did so in the 80s. So, I do think that reimagining the ways in which we view women in film is very much in line with the spirit of his original source material. And I think that some people also have, like, a certain idea of how a story should be told or how The Witcher was in the books, and then haven't really realized what kind of benefits it has to do it in another way. There are multiple perspectives, I guess.

ALYSSA: Before we talk production and score, we’re going to hand it over to Lars from WitcherFlix for recent news on the Netflix show. When we come back, Robin, Jess, and I will continue our discussion of “Four Marks.”

Tidings from Toussaint

[“Tidings from Toussaint” theme music by Bettina Campomanes]

LARS FROM WITCHERFLIX: Hey, it's Lars from WitcherFlix and this is "Tidings from Toussaint". Welcome back everybody. There are some cool news as well as and interesting interview with Henry Cavill to talk about, so let's dive right into it.

I will begin with the best news first: We have a date for when the filming for season 2 will continue: The actors and actresses will be back on set on August 17 and the camera will roll again. To announce this piece of news, our favorite bard Jaskier took over the official Twitter account for the show and tweeted a nice, little poem:

"I’m dusting off my lute and quill,
I have some news, some mead to spill:
After all the months we’ve been apart
It’s time for production to restart.
The Witcher and his bard – who’s flawless,
Will reunite on set 17 August."

In other news, we now know the writers for the first three episodes of season 2: According to an interview, "We Are Irish" Declan de Barra wrote episode 1 of season 2. He was in charge of episode 4 of season 1 called "Of Banquets, Bastards and Burials". This is the episode with the banquet of Cintra and the Urcheon of Erlenwald. According to RedanianIntelligence episode 2 was written by Beau deMayo, the writer of season 1's episode 3 called "Betrayer Moon" with the striga fight. He is also in charge of "The Nightmare of the Wolf", an anime about young Vesemir which is currently in development. Episode 3 of season 2 was written by showrunner Lauren Hissrich herself, together with Clare Higgins, who had been a writer's assistant in season 1. The remaining five episodes of season 2 by the way were writtten by Sneha Koorse, Matthew D'Ambrosio, Michael Ostrowski, Haily Hall and most likely by Lauren Hissrich again.

In an interesting segment for Variety called "Actors on Actors", Henry Cavill had an hour-long conversation with Sir Patrick Stewart and of course they also talked "The Witcher". At first Henry got into how he tried to bring the character of Geralt on screen: "I wanted to give the character an essence of likability and audience connection. In the books which the character comes from there is the luxury of lots of inner monologue and long complex nuanced dialogue scenes. Despite of the exterior of this character and despite the front he presents and some of the acts he comits, you get an insight to who he is and to his philosophies and believes and the way he views the world. But because the showrunner's vision for this show was for more of an ensemble piece the characters of Cirilla and Yennefer drove the story a lot more. So I had to try and find a way for the audience to connect to my character in the same way the reader would connect with the character in the books. (...) Every time Geralt came on screen I wanted the audience to try and work out who he was. He clearly wasn't a bad guy even though he has done some bad stuff. He has a very brusque, stony exterior, so I wanted to try and show that it was perhaps a stoic exterior instead of stony and the less he would say, the more the audience would think 'What does he think?'. It became more of a performance of reactions to other characters and listening to other characters and then you have the few moments where you kind of get a tiny insight. Hopefully that worked and the audience would think 'I have a connection now, I like him because I am trying to work him out.' That for me was the major goal with my character."

Henry also talked about Geralts looks: "When it came to the character and how he looks there are descriptions in the books of how he looks. Of course, there are arguments about what some of these descriptions mean. There is a very popular video game series where he has a very particular look. So within pop culture there is a certain look attached to the character, so I drew elements from all of those things and bring it to the show." Henry also talked about doing his own stunts: "For me, when it comes to that kind of thing like stunts, I’ve always enjoyed doing the physical stuff. Working with Tom Cruise (on “Mission: Impossible — Fallout”) really helped — or maybe, in the eyes of the producers, made worse my enjoyment for stunts. I really want to do them now, and I think it’s an essential piece to the character. If an audience is watching Geralt on-screen, they must believe that it is me. If it’s not me, I feel like I’ve betrayed the character in some way, and so I try and do as much as a production will let me."

Anyway guys, that's it for me for today. I hope you all stay safe and well. We'll talk again in the next episode of Breakfast in Beauclair. Until then, thanks again for listening and good luck on the path!

[“Tidings from Toussaint” theme music by Bettina Campomanes]

Discussion

ALYSSA: For the second topic of discussion, we're going to turn the conversation over to the visuals, the music, and production of this episode, Four Marks. So, Jess, did you want to take some time to introduce us?

JESS: Yeah. So, when I was watching this, obviously, we've been talking a lot about the plot, and different perspectives, and things like that. But, just purely on a visual standpoint, I love the show so much. One of the first things that really struck me was their really great use of contrast.

ROBIN: Mhmm.

JESS: Umm, when you think of contrast, you might think of super highly saturated Technicolor kind of visuals. But The Witcher doesn't really have that. It's actually kind of desaturated. It's very muted. While still having that muted color palette, they use color contrast really well. So, a great example is just that scene where Geralt and Jaskier are walking next to the horse, and there's this huge vista of Green Mountains behind them. So, you have these sweeping Green Mountains and these two guys in black and navy. And they just totally stand out. It makes the characters really in the forefront. And it just makes them pop.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

JESS: And they use that a lot throughout this episode. I think a really great example was also Ciri when she was in that forest. The forest was really frosted and in front of that frosty background with Ciri in this really beautiful royal blue cloak. All to her detriment, she kind of stuck out like a sore thumb while she was trying to escape. But, as viewers, it’s like, “Oh, my gosh, that's so beautiful. Just so striking to see that.” What you see in, like, these episodes, I think the vibrancy is turned down, but you still get that emotional vibrancy from when you see someone, like, Tissaia in this beautiful green dress contrasted against the muted warm brown tones of, like, a greenhouse. I really liked that. It was just really pretty to look at. Kind of continuing that, I really like that the sets are the way that they looked.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

JESS: It really serves to do all that world-building, because the set just looks so lived in. I'm looking at the tavern where Jaskier and Geralt meet. It doesn't look perfect. It's got all of these imperfections painted in there. So, if you think about it, if, you know, a tavern, you’d walk in. It's probably been there for years and years. And there's probably, like, beer sloshing around the floor and, like, people, like, walk all over it. So, you expect a tavern to look a certain way. And that happens over time.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

JESS: But, if you think about someone who had to make these sets, they actually had to intentionally paint in all those imperfections and all those stains.

ROBIN: Yeah.

JESS: And they had to actually do extra work to make a place look grimy and, like, a gross tavern, because that's real, right? So, you, as a viewer, you're really transported. And you feel like, “Oh, like, this is, like, a really lived-in place.” So, I really appreciate all those imperfections that make it really real.

ROBIN: That really makes me think of watching the appendices for the Lord of the Rings movies. So, where the Nazgul will show up with the hobbits and Aragorn just slices them and then defeats them. There are these statues there, and they made those statues out of some sort of foam. And then they made them look really nice. And then he started chopping them up into pieces to make it look worn. And then they started painting it. And that looks so good. And maybe they did that with this too to actually wear it out, like, literally.

JESS: Yeah. I really think that's cool when they do that because I've seen other fantasy shows. Like, oh, gosh, what is it? There's a show called the Good Witch on the Hallmark Channel. It's, like, this really, like, sanitized family-friendly show. And it is a kind of a fantasy show in a sense. It's about a family of witches I think, but it's kind of subtle. And, whenever I look at the set, it just looks like someone, like, bought a whole bunch of stuff at the craft store and just set it there in someone's house. And it looks like it was store-bought and, like, someone just bought it. It looks brand new and everything.

ALYSSA: Hallmark product placement.

JESS: Yeah, exactly. So, it’s like – it's looks like they actually bought out the Hallmarks store. Yeah. So, certain shows that I guess maybe just have a lower budget or they just pump these shows out like it's nothing. So, they don't really have time to spend the way a Netflix show does. Their attention to detail isn't really there. So, you can tell that this show was like filmed somewhere in some random suburb in Canada rather than, when you watch something like this, you're like, “Oh, where did they film this? Like, where did they get these sets?” I mean, from a logical standpoint, you know, someone made them. But, when you're watching it, you don't really think about that. It just kind of transports you because they really did a good job with all the sets and all those visuals. And, going along with, that their costumes, oh, my gosh, I love all the costumes. Tissaia’s was really great, all the textures and the embroidery. Even Geralt’s, his little uniform, like, the huge shoulder pads and everything. I mean that looks, like, really, really great too, because there's all this stitching where you could almost imagine Geralt getting in a fight, and he would have to patch up all the holes and stuff. You could see it really well when he first meets us here. There's kind of like this bust upshot of him sitting at the table. And you could see, like, all these stitches and patches and stuff. And it just looks so real. It's amazing to me just how all of these costume just looks so expensive and luxurious. Even though Geralt really isn't very luxurious, but it just looks so expensive.

ROBIN: But didn't Henry Cavill wear that armor around to make it look even more worn?

JESS: Oh, did he?

ROBIN: Yeah. Hmm. Yeah.

ALYSSA: Yeah. So, apparently, he, like, really, really lived in it. Like, really lived in it. I think they were on set in Budapest.

JESS: No way.

ALYSSA: He, like, slept in it in his trailer overnight.

JESS: No way.

ALYSSA: Just because he wanted it to look more lived in and I'm sure also be more comfortable to actually wearing the leather. But yeah, he really committed.

JESS: Yeah, that’s so funny. Actually, I've read that. There was this person. She does costuming in Hollywood. And she came up with a book, and she was on a podcast. And she was talking about how a lot of times, like, newbie costumers, they just buy something off the rack, and they put it on their talent. And then, when the person walks onsite, you could tell that they had just bought that shirt from the mall or wherever. If you have more time and more resources, you, actually, go ahead and wash those clothes before putting them on the actors, because – I don't know what it is. But, when someone, like, kind of makes clothing in the factory, it kind of has, like, this starchiness to it that makes it look like stiff and brand new. But, after you wash it, that kind of starchiness goes away. And it looks like it's been lived in. Like, I think we've all noticed that. Like, after you wash a shirt, it looks different than the way it looked like on the rack. I'm thinking of, like, those Disney shows or, like, those Nickelodeon shows. Like, you could tell, like, someone had just, like, stepped out of Forever 21. Maybe that's not, like, a fair comparison to, like, a Netflix show, but I think that dedication on Henry Cavill’s part is, like, so awesome.

ALYSSA: Yeah. I think part of it was that the Budapest set was about an hour, hour, and a half drive away from the hotels that they technically had. So, I think, in order to save on the driving time every single day, also, I guess, to – I don't know – live in this armor on his own, where it wouldn't be weird. Like, I don’t know. But I admire – I admire the commitment. I think it'd be really funny to, like, see just Henry in no makeup but full armor just kind of puttering around Budapest.

JESS: Oh, my gosh, that's an amazing visual. Just, like, him without the white wig. Just him in his regular, like, short black hair and just—

ALYSSA: Just imagine the only parts of that armor that are leather are like certain components. So, if he only wear the leather bits and had his, like, infamous blue tank top and, like, jogging trousers.

JESS: Yes, this is visual that I needed to get me through the week.

ALYSSA: That blue tank top, someone on Reddit did a 25-square grid of all the times he’s worn it.

JESS: Oh, my gosh, send links, please.

ALYSSA: It's pretty funny to see. Like, to be fair, I think half of those are like recent pictures from the same video call. But still, it's pretty funny. I think I say this on every single episode that we've recorded this season because the costumes always come up. But we did see the costumes in person at Lucca. And, in this episode, specifically, they did have one of Tissaia’s dresses there. They did have, like, the Aretuza novice dresses as well. At the time, I had no idea what they were for. I was like, “Oh, this is weird.’ Not, like, weird in a bad way. But, like, it—

JESS: It’s just like, “Huh, what's that?”

ALYSSA: Yeah. The Aretuza novice dresses stood out considerably from some of the other costumes that you see in the episode. So, I just didn't really know what they were for, but they were interesting to see.

ROBIN: I also feel like those dresses of the novices really looked as if they didn't fit them.

ALYSSA: Uh-huh.

ROBIN: That they were just lying around the uniforms that they have in all those closets, but they don't really fit anyone. I kind of like that idea.

JESS: Yeah, that's a huge contrast to what Tissaia’s wearing. It's super tailor. It really looks like it was made for her. And, like I said, so luxurious. And it looks really expensive. Like, if I tried to buy that off the rack somewhere, oof, that would be – that would set me back. Whereas – yeah, it's a huge contrast of her being in this really upscale kind of dress that's totally foreign fitted, totally tailored to her. Whereas these other people, they're kind of novices. And they're just wearing this, like, dingy uniform. So, it's a good visual way to explain, I guess, their different places in life.

ALYSSA: Yeah, I think the ones that were done successfully in this episode, I think, Geralt's armor was very great. Everything that we saw throughout Yennefer’s storyline was very consistent from, you know, seeing her and her family at their pig farm. As we said, Tissaia’s clothing compared to the novices, I think that was really done, Ciri as well. I think the one character that stood out – again, this could be for a specific purpose – was Jaskier. His clothing has a very new look and feel to it comparatively to all of the other people in there. Just based on the kind of character that he is, like, I do expect him to be a little more dressed up than some other characters. But I do think, like, it sticks out in, like, a not lived in way compared to the way the other peasants are dressed, the way that Geralt’s dressed. I want his costume to be, like, run through the wash a couple of times.

JESS: Yeah. When you see them standing side by side, you see that contrast. Geralt’s kind of being in this worn down, the suit that he's always fighting in versus Jaskier. But he's – you know, he's kind of – I think of Jaskier as kind of, like, a peacock, you know. So, he's trying to, like, make people look at him and, like, listen to him doing his bard thing. So, as a bard, I feel like it just makes sense for him to kind of look always nice.

ROBIN: I think of Jaskier as, like, this person who likes to walk around looking nice. And he doesn't want to have, like, these worn down clothes. And I also really liked the puff sleeves that he's wearing a lot. I'm replaying Assassin's Creed II right now, and it takes place in Renaissance Venice. And you have bards walking around there too with those puffed sleeves. And it really reminds me of those Venice bards.

JESS: Yeah, very bard-like.

ALYSSA: Yeah, I think the costume itself is, like, perfect. I just want it to be like a little more squished. That sounds like an awful kind of requests. Aside from the visuals, one of the most important things is also the music and the score. And there's a lot of really wonderful information that we've heard after the episode is aired. Sonya Belousova, one of the composers on the show, does a lot of Instagram lives answer questions from the community. She talks a lot about what went into making The Witcher show. Robin, you have some other information that is also applicable to the conversation as well.

ROBIN: Yeah, because, aside from, you know, loving female characters in TV shows, I also really, really love film music, how music can interact with the story. And, like, the best example of that is the film music that Howard Shore wrote for the Lord of the Rings. Like, for me, that's like the summit of film music ever made. He wrote 90 distinct themes for those movies. And he spent, like, a year writing them. And, normally, composers for film music only spent, like, a few months for a movie. Through that, I got introduced to this idea of leitmotifs, because those 90 themes that Shore wrote are actually leitmotifs. And it's a German term. It was a 19th Century composer, Richard Wagner, and he wrote a lot of operas. He was the one who wrote The Ring of the Nibelung, the Nibelungen, which is a German language, opera. And he – that's the point – that's the opera, which, when he uses the most leitmotifs. And a leitmotif is basically a recurring musical motif or theme in the music that the composer and the director, when it's used in film and TV, constantly juxtaposed with a character, story theme, a place, or something else. And the viewer then starts to associate this musical motif or theme with this character, this story theme, or place. And then the composer can start to play with it and recreate the story with music. And, again, a clear example from the Lord of the Rings is that he has a theme for the Shire, where the hobbits come from, and a theme for the Fellowship of the Ring. So, the real quests that they're going to be on. And, the moment that Sam and Frodo with the ring leave Shire, you first hear the Shire theme, and then you hear the Fellowship theme, because they are starting on their journey and the fellowship starts at that moment.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROBIN: And then, at the end of the entire saga, when the deed is done and they're going home, you hear – first, hear the fellowship theme and then you hear the Shire theme in its full form again. And then it feels like a fully rounded story. Like, this is one of the simplest examples, because he throws them together and does everything with it. And I thought it was really cool because I think Sonya also does that in the show. I think we already talked about that maybe a little, but Yennefer's leitmotif is actually introduced in this episode. It's in the scene that she stands in front of the mirror when she's locked into that bedroom.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROBIN: And she's thinking about the four marks that Tissaia paid to buy her from her family. That theme is very much tied up to her self-worth and that feeling of worthlessness. And it returns throughout the season. Again, like, for Yennefer, that's such a pivotal or important moment, the fire in the eighth episode. That led me to Returns Again, because it's very much tied up to her journey and her feeling of worthlessness.

ALYSSA: Mhmm. And Sonya actually addressed that song Four Marks directly in her Instagram Live On Thursday, May 21st. And what she had to say about it was, “That was a beautiful cue.” So, the cue happens in the show. It's Episode II. The first part of the cue is Yennefer’s scene. And it happens when Yennefer first arrives at Aretuza, and she's seeing herself in the mirror. And you can see all of these reflections of her face reflected in that mirror; all that sadness, and maybe a little bit of anger, and really a lot of disappointment. So, that's really the first time Yennefer’s theme gets introduced. And then it gets developed later throughout the whole season. But this is the first time we hear that theme. And, here, it appears in a very sad context. There's a lot of regret and disappointment to it. And that part of the cue transitions into Ciri, who's wandering around the forest. And you can just see it in her eyes. You can see that loneliness that she's feeling. She's feeling so fragile, so lonely, abandoned. She's alone in that forest. And she doesn't know where she needs to go. Her family has all just been killed, and she's absolutely alone in this world. So, that's Ciri’s storyline. So, this is how we're connecting both parts of the cue into this one beautiful track if I can say so.

ROBIN: Yeah, that's really – I think it's really cool that she also really put thought into it and how it should develop. And I also think it's really interesting what they did with this theme only in this episode already. A moment with Istredd, normally, this theme ends in a minor chord. So, it's sad and it's about feeling worthy. And then it ends in a minor key. But then, when she kisses Istredd, it actually ends in a major key. And it goes up. And it feels uplifting because it's a happy moment. But it's still about her feelings. So, this theme is actually turned uplifting by ending it on a major chord.

ALYSSA: That's really cool. And I think it shows a little insight into the character development. And, also, it very literally changes the tune of her emotional journey. The two other notable tracks that Sonya had talked about were Toss A Coin To Your Witcher as well as The Great Cleansing. Again, these were in an Instagram Q&A. So, people were asking about these tracks. So, about Toss A Coin To Your Witcher, this is the most notorious part of the soundtrack. Toss A Coin To Your Witcher came out before the season actually aired. Our community did a cover of it as well the day before the show premiered. And, Sonya and the writer of this episode Jenny Klein, they happen to do a panel the previous night. Jenny Klein talked about writing this track. And then Sonya then paraphrased it in her Instagram Live on May 21st. She said:

[Reading] “Jenny's motivation for that song was that, if you think about it, the Witcher is that type of character. He doesn't get paid. He goes around and he kills monsters, but no one wants to pay him. So, how sad it is. And then, in the short storybooks, the place where all of this happens is called Dol Blathanna, which translates into the Valley of Flowers or the Valley of Plenty. So, per Jenny, ‘How sad is it that, you know, someone cannot get paid in the Valley of Plenty.’ So, this is kind of how the lyrics of the song, ‘Toss A Coin To Your Witcher.’ This is kind of how that happened on Jenny’s side. And, when we received the scripts and the lyrics were already in the script, we worked quite a lot together with Jenny to perfect the lyrics and to kind of make them more into a song form. And, yeah, 100 percent, the inspiration was from those wonderful and amazing lyrics that were written by Jenny.”

So, that's kind of the background on Toss A Coin To Your Witcher. Obviously, it's very, very strong in pop culture. It's found its way onto, like, barista buckets for tips as we talked about.

ROBIN: I think that the funny part about Toss A Coin is, is actually it's not introduced at the moment he starts singing it because you already hear it in the beginning when Jaskier follows Geralt up the mountain.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROBIN: Because he's, like, “Oh, I'm gonna follow Geralt because he's gonna give me some stories to sing about.” And then you already hear an instrumental version of “Toss A Coin To Your Witcher”, which I think is just so great.

ALYSSA: Mhmm. So, in line with that, Sonya actually talked about the track, The Great Cleansing, which I believe appears when Geralt is in the cave with Filavandrel. But she said, “This is a track that happens in the show in the second episode in the moment when Jaskier and Geralt are in the cave with Filavandrel, and they're just about to be killed. At least, they think so, right? So, The Great Cleansing is actually based on the music theme of Toss A Coin To Your Witcher, but it comes in here in a completely different arrangement. It's very dark. It's kind of gloomy, menacing, even sad in places because they might die. We don't know what's going to happen with our characters. So, in this case, we start introducing the theme of Toss A Coin To Your Witcher from way earlier in the episode. In fact, we actually introduce it in the very, very first time we meet Jaskier.” So, it's the moment when Jaskier and Geralt – they're going up the hill. And they basically have their very first dialogue scene. This is the first time we hear Toss A Coin To Your Witcher, but we hear it as part of the score. And then this theme develops throughout the episode, and then finally comes back, you know, in its full shape as a song in that very, very end of the episode. So, in this case, we're kind of preparing the audience for that theme. But it still sounds absolutely fresh and original at the end, but the audience has been prepared for it.

ROBIN: Yeah, I love that. Sometimes, it feels like some film composers just have a very thankless job, because, sometimes, they're just meant to just put some music in the background to fill up the silence. But then there are also some composers who really get the freedom to think about how they could develop this and how they could really help the story forward and how the music and the themes that they come up with can interact with the story and what you see on screen. And I think that's so masterfully done. And I'm like, “Oh, I didn't notice all this stuff the first time I watched it.” So, I really feel like, “Oh, I'm gonna – I'm gonna re-listen to the soundtrack just as a soundtrack.

JESS: You don't really notice it the first time you watch it, but, at the same time, we do notice it, right? Music plays such a huge part in how you perceive emotion and the things that you feel, as a viewer when you're watching something. If you can imagine the entire series or any series or movie without music, it just totally changes the scene. It just makes it so flat. And you just don't have that emotion. The emotions are kind of being set by the music. Yeah. So, when you have certain cues or motifs, even though you don't notice it the first time around, I think you subconsciously hear those sounds. And, as you hear them throughout the show, it cues you into what emotions you're supposed to feel. And, when you hear like Yennefer's motif early in the show and then you hear it throughout this show, it's almost like muscle memory. It's like your ears perk up and you're like, “Oh, this is Yennefer’s—

ALYSSA: Yeah.

JESS: —time or this is Ciri’s cue, and, so, this is her time. So, you hear these things, and it makes you feel all these emotions and makes you remember things. And it just ties everything together. I love that.

ROBIN: Yeah, that's exactly what leitmotifs do. I mean they, they evoke a person or a feeling or a theme. And, if you hear it playing at some point when this character may not be around or even, like, in the Lord of the Rings when they use certain tempos or harmonies, they evoke something else in a certain moment. And then you also subconsciously connect the themes and the thing you see happening with other things that are not currently on screen. And that's, I think, so difficult but also so awesome if a composer can do that.

ALYSSA: Yeah. So, going back to what you're saying, you don't really notice that at first, but you really do notice it even though your conscious mind does it. It—

ROBIN: Yeah.

ALYSSA: It wouldn't be the same without it. The composers, they have a lot on their shoulders to kind of do that for the audience. And I'm glad that they did such a good job with it.

ROBIN: Yeah. Music can really create an atmosphere.

ALYSSA: Mhmm. And Sonya talked about that process. It was interesting because she said that The Witcher was such a unique opportunity because they had to write a bunch upfront, which, normally, isn't done because they only do it in post-production. But she had to write the songs that Joey Batey would sing so he could learn them. And they actually use them on set. They had to, like, make songs to dances that had to be filmed. So, obviously, all of that had to be done so that those scenes could be choreographed. So, it's cool, like, to see how excited she is about the opportunity, because of the unique production cycle that they had.

JESS: Interesting.

ALYSSA: So, the last thing that we're going to do really quickly is just talk about some comparisons to the original source material. You know, most of Yennefer and Ciri’s storylines are new. We do know that, from the books, Yennefer was indeed a hunchback as we talked about, which we found out through Geralt in The Last Wish and that she studied at Aretuza. But, in the books, we’re kind of uncertain of the depth of her relationship with Tissaia. This isn't something that we see in the short stories, but it's something we'll explore in the saga. And we're not really certain of the depth of her relationship with Tissaia, but we're very certain of her loyalty to her. The other thing is we only ever meet Istredd ones in the books, In A Shard of Ice, which, for the podcast, was Episode 10 with Charlotte. So, this episode of the series does a really nice job of establishing Yennefer's backstory as we've spoken about and creating a starting place for her character development. In Ciri’s storyline, this is also quite new. From the complete saga, we know that she escaped Cintra when everyone assumed she was dead. We know that she entered the care of druids at some point. And, in the book, she's about 8 to 10 years old when Cintra falls. So, at least, in my opinion, her storyline here, it kind of makes sense to have her struggle with independence. Things like figuring out how to forage for food on her own, how to interact with just common people in the show, considering the character has been aged up.

ROBIN: Yeah, I thought, like, the way you read about Ciri, she's very much a little child in this part of the story in the books. It’s been a while since I read it, but I really remember imagining her as a very little child that could sit on Geralt’s shoulders easily. You know, in this situation, because she’s aged up, she shows a lot of maturity and intelligence. And that she's young, and she has to learn how to fend for herself. But she also seems very able to. They've kind of put her into this more coming of age situation already in the show.

JESS: Yeah, that's a good way to put it, the coming of age, rather than just being, like, a little kid. You really do see her development. And she already comes in with a little bit of agency. Like we were talking about before the break, we meet Ciri when she's kind of disguised herself trying to play with the boys outside of the castle. She's escaped somehow. I like that difference. That she's kind of a little bit more mature and she could think for herself. And she's out there trying to, to make it on her own.

ALYSSA: The last part is actually Geralt’s storyline. And we do have the luxury of having a direct adaptation to one of the short stories, The Edge of the World. This was covered in Episode 5 of the podcast with our guests, Oleg. And, in the Netflix adaptation, we do get a lot of the broad points of the story. We do know that Jaskier and Geralt meet in Posada. Geralt is then commissioned to find this devil, which he does which results in him getting captured by the sylvan and Filavandrel, and then they escaped. That's the broad points of the story. And that those do still stand in the Netflix series. The difference is that we do get a lot more interaction between Geralt, Jaskier, and the residents of Lower Posada. And there's a lot more kind of, like, lore, if I could put it that way, around The Edge of the World and of the Valley of Flowers. There's a lot of, like, crazy fantastical stuff that happens in it. We meet, like, a literal goddess in the short story and then also see the effect that she has on both the human and nonhuman societies. In terms of, like, how that choice to remove Dana Meadbh from the Netflix series, obviously, the story still stands. It's still very legible, very comprehensive without her. It just adds I think a little more to the fantastic aspect of The Witcher worlds.

ROBIN: In relation to what Lauren Hissrich said about introducing Yennefer and Ciri, again, that's, like, choices you have to make because you only have a limited amount of time that you can spend in a show as opposed to in a book, The choice of doing this adaptation here in this episode together with this part of the story of Yennefer and this part of the story of Ciri is also to introduce the elves, to include some history and world-building about the elves, which is then complemented with the information about Yennefer being a quarter elf and the exposition from Istredd about Aretuza being built by elves, the great cleansing. And it functions as an introduction for Jaskier, of course. In terms of how a show is made, it's just a choice that they had to make and it works. Because it's about the elves and the great cleansing, I think, it works really well within this episode. But, yeah, the adaptation of the short story kind of has to suffer for it.

ALYSSA: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, as I said, this is one the short stories that I do think is really beautiful because it does a really wonderful job of showing the dissonance, and the agony, and the hatred between humans and nonhumans. So, I do think that you know, when we obviously compromised the length of the story, the stakes were much lower. There doesn't seem to be the immediateness of death. Like, I don't necessarily believe that they're in danger even though I know that they probably are in the show. So, that's something I think that I would have liked to see more of. Geralt really felt in trouble in the previous episode when he was fighting with Renfri. There was a lot of tension in those scenes. There was an immediacy to the danger that, obviously, when you're doing a large fight scene, it's kind of baked in. It didn't feel like as dangerous in this episode. So, I would have liked to see more out of this relationship between humans and nonhumans, because it's going to be really, really important in later seasons.

ROBIN: But I think that was also what we talked about earlier. You get these 360-view of this elves situation—

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROBIN: —and the world-building of that, because you have those other storylines; the boy that Ciri meets with a necklace of elf ears around his neck. You know, if you look at the episode as a whole, then the elf thing is still like – I get what you're saying. Like, it's still a little muted as opposed to the short story. But, yeah, they try to work it together basically.

ALYSSA: Yeah, absolutely.

JESS: Even though Geralt’s portion, when we were talking about it, I was like, “Oh, it's so short. I didn't realize that Geralt’s storyline is actually so short compared to Yen and Ciri’s.” But, at the same time, the themes that they're talking about, they’re talking about the great cleansing and where elves were and where they are now. It is played out in the two other stories. And this really is a woman-centric episode. It kind of makes sense that they kind of chopped a bit of Geralt's portion and let it flush out in Ciri and Yen's plotline a little bit. So, it's a little bit of a balancing act. Yep.

ALYSSA: Yeah. Any closing thoughts? Or any questions that either of you, two smart people, like to pose to each other?

JESS: I don't really have wrap-up questions. It's just like – I don't know. I had a good time. This is a nice episode.

ROBIN: Yeah, I had a good time too.

JESS: Like, the way that we've been talking – like I said, this episode is pretty beefy. I mean we talked about a lot of stuff. And I think that, that just happens when you get a bunch of people in the room and talking to each other.

ROBIN: Yeah.

JESS: And community is really important because it brings out all of those things. Most of the things that I said in this episode, I don't think I would have been able to verbalize or even think of to begin with if it weren't for you two kind of prompting me and bringing your perspectives and us bouncing off each other. So, that community is really important. And that's why I love things like book clubs, and podcasts, and things. When you hear someone talk about something that they're passionate about, it makes you think, and then it makes you join in that dialogue. And then they could bounce off what you're saying. Yeah. So, that community aspect is really important. So, if you want to keep the conversation going, go to Reddit. And—

ALYSSA: Yeah.

JESS: I would encourage furthering this discussion at a – wait. What's your – what's your subreddit?

ALYSSA: r/thehanza.

JESS: Yeah, r/thehanza.

ALYSSA: Yeah, I mean it's so lovely, obviously, having both of you who are so engaged and so interested in these kinds of difficult conversations, and then challenging each other. I think that's a really wonderful part of our community. It's important to me. And, again, Episode 4, I'll be crying about 10 minutes into the recording.

JESS: No.

ALYSSA: No, all good things. But we talk about the purpose of community in Episode 19, which led me to tears. And I do really think that you know, having this kind of sounding board, having different perspectives from all across the globe has been incredibly enlightening for myself and, I hope, for all of our listeners as well.

ROBIN: Oh, same here. I mean you said all the things that I could possibly say, because I, I also really love that we can talk about these things and, indeed, use each other as a – as a soundboard, you call it?

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROBIN: ‘Soundboard’ is that in English?

ALYSSA: Yeah.

ROBIN: Well, I think that's really cool that this is like a platform or a way to do that. Like, you have conversations with people from all kinds of cultural backgrounds to talk about these things and, and come together over something that we all really like to talk about and like to think about. And I think that's really, really awesome. And I think that's something really cool that you achieved, Alyssa.

ALYSSA: Oh, thanks. And then I cry again.

ROBIN: Oh, no.

ALYSSA: So, the closing question I wanted to ask you guys is we obviously talked a lot about how this episode was done, its successes, its opportunities. What do you think that others can learn from it or other productions could do better in the future based on what was done here?

ROBIN: The three storyline thing has its negative sides, but I think it really helps you identify with these characters and get to know these characters. And, if you have more than one main character, you spend time with all of them and start to sympathize with all of them. And that's really well done. And, also, our conversation about female characters, it's something that has been given attention more and more and is talked about more and more. I think it's important for people, in general, watching films and TV shows to be aware that that is something that is in our popular culture. That there are tropes and stereotypes that are out there, and that there are people who are trying to put a different perspective on it and try to do it in a different way. Like Jess said, just flip the script and try to do it another way. And I think that, as far as female characters are concerned with Yennefer and Ciri, that this show and this episode has done that really well.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

ROBIN: And I love to see more of that. So, yeah.

ALYSSA: Jess, any closing thoughts?

JESS: I was really impressed by how, based on all of the quotes that you were pulling, Alyssa, that they really thought about the source material. They really dove deep. And, yet, it's not a one-to-one comparison adaptation. It's not like we're, you know, spending that time with Geralt, and then spending that time with Yennefer and flashbacks, and then we meet Ciri. I think doing this three-in-one narrative for every episode was a really good move. And it's something that people didn't really expect. So, while it is a very faithful adaptation, in my opinion, because they really stuck it close to the source material, the way that they actually played out the adaptation is totally different than how it played out in the books, I really appreciate that it wasn't, you know, a shot-by-shot, page-to-page, one-to-one ratio. They really did their own spin on it while still being faithful to that source material. And I mean that's, that's amazing that they're able to create this art that was based on something else. But, at the end of the day, they can say that this is my art that I created and it's, its own thing. It's an adaptation, sure, and it's bringing new life to this fandom essentially.

ALYSSA: Mhmm.

JESS: And, so, whether you're totally new to The Witcher or you're a diehard fan, the fact that they're giving you little surprises and changing up the ways that they're presenting the characters in the pod, that's really awesome. So, everyone can be engaged no matter what level of Witcher fandom you're at. I love it.

ALYSSA: Yeah. Yeah. It's been really incredible seeing the continued journey of the fandom, I think, and bringing this content to a new audience as well. I'm glad that, you know, obviously it's something very digestible for people. And that, again, in the spirit of the original source material, it's continuing to challenge them. And, you know, hopefully, this does bring people to the books as well. So, that is it for our show today. Robin, Jess, thank you so much for joining us for this episode and thank you to our hanza for listening. So, where can people find you, and is there anything that our community can help you with or anything that you'd like to share with them?

JESS: You could find me on Instagram @J_Bagsy, B-A-G-S-Y, or @teamlensflare, T-E-A-M-L-E-N-S-F-L-A-R-E. Oh, my god. Every time I have to spell that, I get, like, really nervous. Yeah, we are a cosplay photography group. Two of our photos were actually featured in the Cosplay Realm Magazine, Galactica issue if you want to check that out. We're legit. So, yeah, Team Lens Flare.

ROBIN: I'm doing an internship with some history students. We're also making a podcast. It's a podcast in Dutch. So, if there are any Dutch people listening, then that's, for sure, something you might want to listen to because it's a podcast about the history of the city we study in, which is Utrecht. It's called DOMcast, which is a reference to the DOM tower in our city, church tower. So, it's DOMcast, D-O-M-C-A-S-T. And we're on Instagram. We're on Apple Podcasts and SoundCloud. And I made an episode in English about the foundation of the University of Utrecht. So, anyone listening, that is non-Dutch. You can also listen to that episode. I'm very proud of it and how it turned out. So, yeah.

ALYSSA: Oh, I'm glad. And I'm sure that our hanza would love to support both of you in those cosplay endeavors as well as your own awesome Dutch podcast. Next episode, join us as we discuss the third episode of The Witcher Season I in our coverage of Episode 3, “Betrayer Moon”.

Outro & Credits

[Breakfast in Beauclair theme music by MojoFilter Media]

ALYSSA: Thanks for joining us at the breakfast table! For show notes, transcripts of each episode, and a complete list of our social platforms and listening services, head over to breakfastinbeauclair.com.

Breakfast in Beauclair is created by Alyssa from GoodMorhen. It’s hosted by Alyssa with the “Tidings from Toussaint” News Segment by Lars from WitcherFlix. The show is edited by Alyssa with the Breakfast in Beauclair theme by MojoFilter Media and the “Tidings from Toussaint” theme by Bettina Campomanes.

Breakfast in Beauclair is produced by Alyssa in New York City with Luis of Kovir, The Owner of The Churlish Porpoise, Arix the Godling, Katie (The Redhead of Toussaint), Jacob B., Mahakam Elder Joe, Julie, Sylvia of Skellige, Jamison, Ayvo of Gulet, Bee Haven of the Edge of the World, Jacob Meeks, and Sebastian von Novigrad.

Special thanks to Jess B. and Robin for joining us for this episode and our international hanza for their support.

Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo
Editor: Krizia Casil

 

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