Ep. 3 — "The Lesser Evil" with Cyprian

Cyprian from Poland and Berlin joins Alyssa from GoodMorhen to discuss the third short story from Andrzej Sapkowski’s The Last Wish, “The Lesser Evil.” Very important bits include: the complex ethics of neutrality, all of the bluffs, improper uses of “as you do,” and Geralt of Rivia’s famous line about neutrality and the nature of evil.

This episode is available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, and Stitcher.

Transcript

Cold Open

CYPRIAN: The night before, he actually stood his men, right? He stood his ground.

ALYSSA: Mmhm.

CYPRIAN: "He stood his men." I'm sorry, that–that's something you would say in German. I just now realized that sentence doesn't really make quite much sense in English... but, yeah.

[Alyssa laughs]

CYPRIAN: Uh, nevermind!

Introduction

[Breakfast in Beauclair theme music by MojoFilter Media]

ALYSSA: Welcome to Breakfast in Beauclair, a global Witcher Podcast. My name is Alyssa from GoodMorhen, and I’ll be your host as you, I, and our international hanza accompany Geralt of Rivia and his destiny, Cirilla of Cintra, across The Continent.

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[Episode Details]

As for this episode, we’re joined by our Polish friend, Cyprian, calling in from Berlin to discuss the next short story in Andrzej Sapkowski’s The Last Wish, “The Lesser Evil.” Together, we’ll explore themes such as the complex ethics of neutrality, all of the bluffs, improper uses of “as you do,” and Geralt’s famous line about neutrality and the nature of evil.

During the mid-episode break, Lars from WitcherFlix returns with a crew update and a very intriguing piece of casting news.

So! Without further ado, let’s get to this episode’s short story, “The Lesser Evil.”

Discussion

[Breakfast in Beauclair stinger by MojoFilter Media]

ALYSSA: Hey everyone, welcome to this week's episode. My name is Alyssa from GoodMorhen and I'm so excited to have Cyprian here who's joining us from Berlin to discuss the next two short stories in Andrzej Sapkowski's The Last Wish: "The Lesser Evil" and "A Question of Price." Hey, Cyprian! How's it going?

CYPRIAN: It's, uh, it's going great!

ALYSSA: Yeah!?

CYPRIAN: It's going great. How are you?

ALYSSA: I'm good. I'm really excited to get to these two short stories. Um, but I'd love to introduce you more to our community a bit. So, you're originally from Poland, right? And you've told me that you're currently studying in Berlin?

CYPRIAN: That's right, that's right. My family actually comes from Poland. Yeah, I'm right now living in Berlin and studying history and classical archaeology, for those interested.

ALYSSA: What drew you to those two disciplines?

CYPRIAN: It's a funny story, because I actually was studying, um, economical and computer science before that. Then... I realized I'm not that... actually good at math.

[Alyssa laughs]

CYPRIAN: So, um, yeah, I had a little... change of mind, you could say. I chose to go after that what I'm really good at, you know, so, uh, history's always been a passion of mine. And I thought, like, why not just do it and turned out quite well.

ALYSSA: Yeah. So, you and I actually met through Instagram. You've been following the GoodMorhen account, which is so cool. So, we've gotten to know each other through there. But could you tell us a little bit about your experience with and your interest in The Witcher Universe?

CYPRIAN: I think one thing to say is... I'm Polish, so. People don't realize how popular this is in Poland. This is actually, like, of course, a medieval fantasy story, but even my sixty-year-old father knows about it.

ALYSSA: Mmhm.

CYPRIAN: The other day, we were talking. I noticed you didn't know about the story where the Polish Prime Minister gave a–a copy of The Witcher II to Barack Obama on his visit to Poland.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

CYPRIAN: Like, this is the level of obsession that Poland has with “The Witcher”, you know?

ALYSSA: I love it. You actually told me that anecdote about Barack Obama when we first had a, um, initial screening and, I think, in my head, I'd love to imagine Barack Obama just reading The Witcher with Michelle and their dogs.

CYPRIAN: That would be pretty crazy.

ALYSSA: I think that'd be so cool!

CYPRIAN: Yeah, I mean, yeah. He–he was quite impressed, actually, with the gift. Er, it's–it was, um, unconventional to say the least.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

CYPRIAN: But... oh, well.

ALYSSA: I love it though.

CYPRIAN: Another fact, like, um, when Witcher II was coming out, um. Actually on the Polish version of the Playboy magazine—

ALYSSA: Uh-huh.

CYPRIAN: —the cover girl was Triss Merigold.

ALYSSA: Oh, that's right! I did hear about that. That's so funny.

CYPRIAN: Right? Right?

ALYSSA: I mean, it's incredible to see, like, how iconic it is.

CYPRIAN: It's–it's really crazy and I think a part of it is, like, really the lore, because it's based on Polish folklore that really gets people captured, because there isn't that much content regarding Slavic mythology and Slavic folklore out there. It's always, like, Celtic or, like, English medieval or something, which is cool, don't get me wrong, but if you have something, which you can culturally relate to, it's something else.

ALYSSA: Yeah. So, today we're going to be discussing "The Lesser Evil," which is the third short story in The Last Wish. And when I first asked you to discuss "The Lesser Evil" with me, you mentioned that it was one of your favorite stories.

CYPRIAN: Yes.

ALYSSA: So, without any spoilers, could you tell us why?

CYPRIAN: I think it's one of those stories where, um... how can I describe it?

[Alyssa chuckles]

CYPRIAN: I mean, without spoilers it's quite–quite challenging. Erm, broadly speaking, like, the situation Geralt finds himself in, there are no good options.

ALYSSA: Mmhm.

CYPRIAN: I mean, you can only imagine yourself in a similar situation. It's quite mind-boggling, like, the circumstances he finds himself in and what ultimately comes of it, er, we will find out in this episode, so. I'm gonna leave it at that for now.

ALYSSA: Well, thanks so much. And I guess we can, you know, get straight into it. Yeah?

CYPRIAN: Sure! Let's do it.

ALYSSA: Awesome.

[Reading] Part I starts with Geralt entering Blaviken with a kikimora corpse from the nearby swamps and presents it to the local alderman, Caldemeyn, who he knows, hoping for reward. There is no reward, but a town guard suggests bringing it to Master Irion, the local sorcerer.

[Reading] Part II, Geralt and the alderman, Caldemeyn, bring the kikimora to Master Irion's tower, where the sorcerer declines the monster's corpse, but ushers Geralt into the tower alone. Inside the tower, Geralt is surprised to find Stregobor, a sorcerer acquaintance from Kovir, who has adopted the pseudonym "Master Irion" while living in Blaviken. Stregobor reveals he's on the run from Renfri, an exiled princess of Creyden, who's allegedly a cursed and violent mutant and pleads with Geralt to kill her. Geralt refuses, saying it's neither his job nor his business to kill humans.

CYPRIAN: Well, first of all, we know he's not from the School of the Cat, right? [Alyssa laughs] Otherwise, he would just jump right into this contract.

ALYSSA: No, that's actually a really excellent point, um, if he had been from a different witcher school, this might not have been a moral dilemma that would have come up.

CYPRIAN: That–that story would have been quickly over in, like, five more pages and we're done.

ALYSSA: That's it!

CYPRIAN: That's it.

ALYSSA: I don't know why Sapkowski wasted his time giving us a very in-depth moral dilemma.

[Laughs]

CYPRIAN: I know, right? Bad guy's killed. Job well done. Let's go home.

ALYSSA: So, I obviously ran through that really fast in the summary, but this is an incredible, incredible section. When Geralt goes into this tower and talks to the sorcerer there—as the summary said—is living under the name Master Irion, but is really the sorcerer Stregobor. When Sapkowski starts describing the setting that Geralt finds himself in, everything is an illusion. Everything from the ground he's standing on, to the environment that–that he's in, to, like, specifically a naked woman that's in the illusion.

CYPRIAN: AKA, a sex slave.

ALYSSA: Apparently, yeah!

[Laughs]

CYPRIAN: I guess so, but she's just an illusion, so—

ALYSSA: Yeah.

CYPRIAN: I guess it's alright? I don't know.

ALYSSA: Ehh! That's a–that's another moral dilemma that we could talk about.

CYPRIAN: Up for discussion. Let's leave it at that.

ALYSSA: So, the crux of the story is really Geralt talking to Stregobor, the sorcerer, about the thing that he's running from. Stregobor is really private about what this thing is.

CYPRIAN: Yeah.

ALYSSA: And it takes awhile for Geralt to really get it out of him.

CYPRIAN: Kinda doesn't want to admit he kind of created this monster himself.

ALYSSA: Yeah, we could definitely, you know, take a moment to introduce what the actual, um, details of Stregobor's story are here.

CYPRIAN: Yeah.

ALYSSA: So, Stregobor... he actually starts telling Geralt about what's going on. Um, he asks Geralt if he's heard of the Curse of the Black Sun. So, tl;dr [“too long; didn’t read”] what that means is: there was some sort of eclipse and there was a sorcerer that said, "There's a bunch of girls that were born right around the time of the eclipse that are just batshit crazy and violent and they're going to predict the coming of… the end of man."

CYPRIAN: Just the usual!

ALYSSA: Yeah, the usual. Like, as all women do.

[Laughs]

ALYSSA: As all women are born to do, they bring about the end of man.

[They laugh]

CYPRIAN: So, what's the Curse of the Black Sun? The explanation is quite poor, right? I mean, basically, it boils down to: this dude said, "There's [an] eclipse and all these girls who were born at–during that eclipse are bad 'cause I said so."

ALYSSA: Geralt… he accuses Stregobor and the other sorcerers of, essentially, taking advantage of the situation and the rumor of this curse in order to break up political alliances, to ruin marriages, in order to, like, mess up dynasties within The Continent. Stregobor was like, "No. There's, like, biological proof that these girls were not only messed up mentally and violent…” They did autopsies on the girls that they killed. He said that they, like, vivisectioned one? And there was, like, all sorts of messed up things with their hearts, their organs and things like that. Stregobor and Geralt argue about this, back and forth, with neither of them really being able to convince the other of whatever truth that they're trying to convey.

CYPRIAN: Yeah, I mean, it's a poor argument to make against Geralt, in particular, to say, like, "Because you're a mutant, you're bad."

ALYSSA: Mmhm.

CYPRIAN: I mean, maybe it wasn't the best game plan to tell that to a mutant, so. [They laugh] I mean, that hit quite heavy after you read it, because, sure, the Witcher World is a quite grim one—

ALYSSA: Mmhm.

CYPRIAN: —and there's people dying left and right, uh, let's be real here. But, um, quite frankly, Geralt puts on the pressure and gets that information out of him. What they have done with these kids, right? They held them in towers, killed them. I don't know. Maybe… you could–you could argue really well that he's, erm, he's at fault.

[Chuckles]

CYPRIAN: If you go ahead and—let's just believe what Stregobor says here, right? Like, these kids are, like, somehow doomed. They are hyper-aggressive. They are, like, whatever, they're just cursed, right? They just bring about evil for whatever reason, right? If you take that for granted, if you believe him, you kinda can get along with–with the decisions they made, right? To just eradicate these mutants, because, like, [they’re] no longer humans in their eyes, right? So, they just eradicate them and just finish it before it even started, right? Not to mention that they didn't get all of them, right? Quite a few of them escaped and everything.

CYPRIAN: But, then again, it's as you mentioned, quite dubious with all these political things in between, I mean, it was quite convenient for them that this curse just happens right then and there, right? And also predominantly to girls of higher standing, like, nobility, right? So, it's kind of hard to believe, right? I mean, they have–they have a motive to have made all of this up.

ALYSSA: Mmhm. Yeah, I think it's one of those things where you have no idea what the right side of history would be when you start making these claims that can't really be proven or answered.

CYPRIAN: Yeah.

ALYSSA: Or that—especially in, like, a medieval era—there's no way of really recording this in a way that's replicable or proven.

CYPRIAN: Yeah.

ALYSSA: It's all like word-of-mouth. It's all oral history, really.

CYPRIAN: Yeah. Without, like, spoiling anything. Uh, I think we're going to come back to this point at the end of the story when Stregobor makes a proposal to Geralt, which is going to be quite interesting. But, em, yeah, I guess what it comes down to is, like, two sides of the story, right? There's no debating what happened. They did some messed of things, they killed some girls. They tortured some. And, em, now one of them is, uh, up for revenge, right?

ALYSSA: Yep, and that actually is a perfect segue into the details of Stregobor's story. Stregobor starts spinning Geralt this story. He had been summoned to Creyden by the Prince of Creyden's wife, Aridea, and... she apparently used a magic mirror. This is gonna sound a little familiar to everyone that's familiar with any basic fairy tale.

CYPRIAN: Yeah.

ALYSSA: Aridea used a magic mirror; saw that she would one day be killed by her husband's daughter from previous marriage. So, she sends the little girl out with a trapper for the trapper kill her. The little girl kills the trapper and runs away. They don't find the girl until she turns up a couple years later, having lived with seven gnomes in Mahakam, where they were robbing merchants on the road. And then there are all these assassination attempts back and forth between Aridea and the princess, Renfri. Eventually Aridea dies. So, Stregobor after Aridea's death ends up in Creyden and he runs into this princess, Renfri, and she recognizes him. Since then, he's been on the run from her and she has now found him again in Blaviken.

CYPRIAN: Yeah, now the stage is set.

ALYSSA: And now the stage is set. But it's really interesting to see classic fairy tales, like Snow White, as well as all of the other ones will see throughout the short stories.

CYPRIAN: Yeah, yeah. I quite like these comparisons, because, I mean, fairy tales—they are nice stories, right? But then you have these twisted versions of these stories, which might be interpreted as "this is what actually happened," right? The world is messed up and this is what happened. This one princess was living with the seven gnomes and word-of-mouth gets around and everyone changes the story. But, yeah, now we have a whole story.

ALYSSA: Mmhm.

CYPRIAN: And that's actually happened quite a lot also in our world, just, like, the small little bit, but everyone who's familiar with these tales will notice them.

ALYSSA: Yeah, it definitely gets a little more explicit. This comes up much later on the story, but, Renfri, mentions that they tried to poison her with an apple.

CYPRIAN: Yeah.

ALYSSA: And, so, that's like another funny, little detail, but there's a lot of parallels between "The Lesser Evil" and Snow White.

CYPRIAN: Yeah.

ALYSSA: We get one of the most iconic quotes in the whole series. This is a quote that a lot of people reference and love and I definitely think it's worth reading out!

[Laughs]

CYPRIAN: Do the honors.

ALYSSA:

[Reading] "Geralt," said Stregobor, "when we were listening to Eltibald, many of us have doubts. But we decided to accept the lesser evil. Now I ask you to make a similar choice."

[Reading] "Evil is evil, Stregobor," said the Witcher seriously as he got up. "Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all."

ALYSSA: [Whispered admiringly into the abyss] I-con-ic.

CYPRIAN: So much so that it actually ended up in one of the trailers for the third game, right?

ALYSSA: Yeah. This is definitely a quote to remember and this sets up the entire story from here on out. I think this is a perfect example of the value that Geralt has that is attacked repeatedly throughout the story. He makes it very clear here to Stregobor—and he will throughout—that, one, he doesn't believe in a lesser evil and he refuses to be broken into choosing one. So… remember this.

[Laughs]

CYPRIAN: We are gonna have to, yes.

ALYSSA: Listeners, remember this for a hot second and we will definitely get back to it.

[Laughs]

CYPRIAN: Take notes, people. This is important, right.

ALYSSA: This is some important shit so you better listen up.

[Laughs]

CYPRIAN: Ah, right, I forgot this podcast is, ah, it's R-rated.

[Alyssa laughs]

CYPRIAN: You can swear in here.

ALYSSA: Oh, yeah. Yeah, by all means. I'm from New York; I'm going to swear.

CYPRIAN: I see, all right then. But, er, in all seriousness, I mean, yeah, as you said, sets, like, the–the moral standard of Geralt, right?

ALYSSA: Mmhm.

CYPRIAN: This is the standard he wants to live up to. [We're]... gonna see how that one... works out for him. But, um, it's crazy! I mean, not a lot of people [are] gonna think that's a hard choice to make, right? Sacrifice one life save ten others. But Geralt says, "No." It doesn't matter to him. He doesn't really care if he's gonna have to kill ten people or one, like, he's killing and that's the point, right?

ALYSSA: Mmhm.

CYPRIAN: It's evil one way or another and he doesn't want to do any of it. So, it's really interesting how a person with this mindset, which this quote captures perfectly, what happens to Geralt when he gets to a situation where he's going to have to choose. I'm sorry, I'm spoiling right now.

[They laugh]

ALYSSA: [Reading] Part III takes us to the Golden Court Inn where Caldemeyn and Geralt question the innkeeper asking after Renfri and her gang. He says the gang is there for tomorrow's market and they are staying in the inn. Geralt confronts them alone asking for Renfri and they taunt and insult the witcher. Right before a fight breaks out among the men, Renfri arrives. She speaks to Geralt and Caldemeyn, presenting them with a letter of safe conduct from a local king, effectively allowing her to operate above the law within Blaviken. After the alderman leaves, Renfri tells Geralt that Stregobor will die tomorrow and that "it would be the lesser evil if he died alone."

CYPRIAN: It's quite a chunk to dissect.

ALYSSA: Yeah, it's a really big chunk of the story, for sure. In this scene where Geralt actually confronts the gang, except for one very specific moment, he is incredibly calm throughout this whole interaction, which is wild.

CYPRIAN: Yeah, yeah.

ALYSSA: What I love about this, also, is how detailed Sapkowski gets with these minor characters that we're never really going to see after the short story, but they're so vivid and I love that about the way that he writes.

CYPRIAN: You know what? I love and I hate it at the same time.

ALYSSA: [Chuckles] Why's that?

CYPRIAN: ‘Cause he paints, like, such an interesting picture, like, I want to know more about these people. Like, what were their lives before, like, this interaction in the inn, you know? What–what were they doing? I think their life story is one hell of a story, every single one of them. But you never get to see them again.

CYPRIAN: You–you just pass people by and everyone has a story to tell. Everyone is fighting a battle you don't know about. It's quite interesting and I like to, er, compare it with Star Wars, actually, the original ones. This iconic one, right? With Luke and Obi-wan. When they come to this canteen of all these different aliens and every one of these characters in this canteen has, like, a ten-page-long Wiki page with all this backstory. And I would love something like that in The Witcher; not only for characters, but also for, like, kingdoms and everything. It's very detailed in the story, right, in the context of the story, but, again, I want to know more.

[Laughs]

CYPRIAN: Yeah, it speaks volumes about his, eh, quality as writer, but, er, sometime it just drives me crazy.

[They laugh]

ALYSSA: I feel like it's one of those things that it's definitely a good thing to be upset by.

[Laughs]

CYPRIAN: I guess so, yeah.

ALYSSA: Renfri's gang consists of six men: Vyr and Nimir, who are twins; Nohorn, who's only described disfigured by a scar; Tavik, who wears a plait; Civril, who's a half-elf who does a lot of the dirty talk—er, not dirty talk. Insulting talk. "Dirty talk" is very different.

CYPRIAN: Yeah.

[Laughs]

ALYSSA: And Fifteen, who is just half-naked the whole scene.

CYPRIAN: Yeah, and drunk, I think, right?

ALYSSA: Probably all of them are. Cannot relate. They all probably are drunk.

[Laughs]

CYPRIAN: You know, but–but you gotta have to be, I mean, like, to talk some serious shit to a witcher like that. They are quite confident.

ALYSSA: Oh yeah. There's this excerpt that I like here, also. The half-elf, Civril, is going back and forth with Geralt. This is the one moment where Geralt breaks slightly. Geralt says something about Civril's mother. Civril says back, "At least I knew my mother."

CYPRIAN: Ooo.

ALYSSA: [Laughs] Oh snap! This isn't quite World Star yet, but we're going to get there.

[They laugh.]

ALYSSA: This is another little detail that we get about the history of witchers, where we hear a little bit in "The Witcher" about the origin of witchers, a little more in "A Grain of Truth" through his conversation with Nivellen, and then again, like, another little nugget. And then, there's, like, a stupid little line here. I love the dialogue that Sapkowski writes. Nohorn, who's one of the idiots in Renfri's gang says:

"What did he say about Civril's mother? Something extremely nasty, as I understood it. That she was an easy lay or something. Hey, Fifteen, is it right to listen to some straggler insulting a companion's mother? A mother, you son-of-a-bitch, is sacred!"

ALYSSA: [Laughs] And I love that line. I think it's so funny.

CYPRIAN: That's actually funny. And if I remember correctly, it's actually different in Polish.

ALYSSA: Is it?

CYPRIAN: I think so. I don't remember him calling him a "son-of-a-bitch," actually.

ALYSSA: Ooo, what is it?

CYPRIAN: Okay, I'm gonna have to search for awhile, but you just keep going. I'm going to come back to it.

ALYSSA: Okay, sounds good.

ALYSSA: Right when they're about to fight, Renfri arrives. As she's trying to figure out what's going on, Civril steps in and some of the boys start stepping in. She tells Civril to shut up. The line in the text says:

[Reading] Civril stopped laughing. Immediately. Geralt wasn't surprised. There was something very strange in Renfri's voice—something associated with the red reflection of fire on blade, the wailing of people being murdered, the whinnying of horses, and the smell of blood.

ALYSSA: Which is... fucking terrifying.

[Laughs]

ALYSSA: I wonder what a voice like that would sound like. Something that, I guess, reaches into the pit of your soul and just, like, pulls it out cold.

CYPRIAN: Right.

ALYSSA: And I'm really interested to see how they adapt this story onscreen and where the actress who was recently recast to play Renfri is going to take the character.

CYPRIAN: Yeah, I mean, it's gonna have to be like a death stare, but in voice form, I guess. It's, er, quite hard to imagine. I mean, you have such a description of a voice, like, I'm not a big actor myself, but trying to imitate something like this, something so much so described.

ALYSSA: Mmhm.

CYPRIAN: Well, maybe she's going to surprise us.

ALYSSA: Yeah. I'm really excited to see a character like this on screen and I think that we see very few of them. Characters like this that are female and brutal and, I think, complex in their brutality. I'm really, really excited to see how this plays out in the Netflix series, for sure.

CYPRIAN: Yeah, definitely. That's what I, er, love about The Witcher as a whole, you know, like, erm, Nivellen, for example, right? He has a backstory too, right? If you just look at him, he's a bear or whatever, right? But he has a whole story behind himself and so does Renfri. No one is evil just for the sake of it or, at least, not a lot of people. I mean, sure there are some psychos out there. But, erm, you know, that's funny. I read a quote the other day, right? It was, "Everyone is a hero in their own story."

ALYSSA: Yeah, absolutely.

CYPRIAN: This is pretty much spot on for this story. Everyone in this story, every major character thinks they're the hero in their story.

ALYSSA: Mmhm.

CYPRIAN: They think that it's justified what they are doing.

ALYSSA: Yeah, that's a really incredible point to make. And I think that's actually a perfect segue into Part IV. So, we've heard Stregobor's side of the story. We get a small taste of Renfri and her gang.

[Reading] Part IV takes us to Geralt's room in Caldemeyn's house. Geralt returns to his room after dinner and finds Renfri waiting for him. She pours them both a drink and says that there are only two people who can prevent the upcoming slaughter: Stregobor, if he surrenders himself to her voluntarily, and Geralt, if he kills Stregobor himself. Geralt notes that Stregobor would never surrender. Renfri here cites the Tridam Ultimatum and says that she plans present it to the sorcerer to force his hand, but she doesn't tell Geralt what the Tridam Ultimatum is. Geralt refuses to kill Stregobor on her behalf but tells Renfri that he also refused Stregobor’s pleas to kill her. The witcher vows he won't allow anyone to be slaughtered in Blaviken and recommends Renfri leave the town in peace. After a brief trance, Renfri tells Geralt that she'll leave Blaviken in the morning for good and then the two of them spend the night together.

ALYSSA: 'Ey.

CYPRIAN: As you do.

ALYSSA: As—

[Inhales sharply. It's just registered that “As you do” in this case implies getting jiggy with your frenemy/candidate for contractual murder is something that’s v. common.]

ALYSSA: I don't know if "as you do" would be an appropriate thing to say here. Let's be real.

[Laughs]

CYPRIAN: I mean, alright, we're talking about Geralt here, right? You know, witchers have a higher libido. [Alyssa laughs] That's–that's a fact, I'm not making that up. But, um, Renfri is, uh, quite handsome herself. [They laugh]

ALYSSA: Geralt does bring that up to someone and he asks, like, "She must not be that bad than, 'ey?"

CYPRIAN: Yeah, yeah.

ALYSSA: —and that person's like, "ngg."

CYPRIAN: To each their own, right? Eskel likes horned women. So, that's fine, too, you know? Whatever someone does in their bedroom, er, that's–that's none of my business.

[Alyssa laughs]

CYPRIAN: It's the classic "rivals before the showdown," right? They are talking about it and everything. Since, she's a girl and he's a–a male, they sleep together.

ALYSSA: So, we see in this scene, Renfri, on her own, presenting us with her humanity and with her vulnerability, which, you know, we wouldn't necessarily see in any other story. Again, like, digs back to the complexity of these characters and the way that they're written. We get a very complete picture of not only who they are, but who they think they are, and who others like they are, which I find incredibly fascinating.

CYPRIAN: Yes, yes.

ALYSSA: So, there's a really wonderful excerpt here where Geralt asks Renfri if she knows why she was hunted in the past. She admits she knows she's supposed to be cursed or that she's supposed to be a monster because of this Black Sun thing. Geralt asks if she is a monster. And there's this moment of humanization and vulnerability from Renfri. She just tells him:

[Reading] "I don't know. Because how am I to know?" Like, "When I cut my finger, I bleed. I bleed every month, and I get hangover when I get drunk."

ALYSSA: That's her idea of normal. Her–her world has always been her world. And without, I think, the external point of view of others, she would have continued operating in the way that she knows how. And it's not until her values and her way of living starts clashing with societal values or individual values that it really starts making it known that she comes into conflict with people.

CYPRIAN: Yeah, yeah, that's true. I mean, um, if one guy tells you you're crazy, maybe–maybe he's wrong, right? But if a thousand people tell you you're crazy, maybe–maybe you're wrong, right? I mean, but it's quite interesting, the point you hit on. That's all she knows. She even told Geralt, like, in her past when she was a child, she had everything, right? She had a nice life. She had a stable home. Everyone treated her like everything was fine, right? But then, after this whole curse, everything has gone to shit, right? And now, er, she's apparently a monster and everyone wants to kill her.

CYPRIAN: You can only imagine, like, how much emotional stress this puts on somebody, right? Like, everything you know is being taken away from you. People treat you as a–as a threat and paint you out as a monster and you don't even know what they're talking about.

ALYSSA: Right.

CYPRIAN: No wonder she feels like an outcast. Eventually, she lashes out because of her vulnerability. She lashes out in anger and, erm, this goes up in magnitude and ends in… what is about to happen. Again, she's not evil, like, just for [the] sake of being evil.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

CYPRIAN: She–she has her reasons, as does everyone, for everything they do.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

CYPRIAN: No one does anything without the reason and it's—even–even the most evil people. I bet even in our world—like monsters, dictators—in their mind, at least, thought they were in the right! That they were doing the right thing! Of course, we don't know what was going on in their heads, but that's kind of the message here, right? To come back to it. "Everyone is the hero in their own story." It's quite an interesting take.

ALYSSA: I also think it's one of those things where… she was a princess, who was then brought to be murdered and she escaped. She talks a lot about what she needed to do to survive. And I feel like it's one of those things where you don't notice the change in yourself day by day by day, but then when you look back a number of years later, suddenly you're so far from the person who you were. And I think it's, again, like, one of those things where you hear stories of the arcs that people have, like, what they're notorious for in the landscape and The Witcher Universe, but for her she only did what she needed to survive until it got her to this point.

ALYSSA: When you look at it in retrospect, it's almost like a, "Yeah, of course that's where I came from, because this is where I am now." But for an outsider, who has no context into her story and who she is, it's unsurprising that she's seen as violent, as something to be feared.

CYPRIAN: Yeah, yeah, of course. And it makes you wonder, like, we all—what can take away from this—is, like, to pay more attention to our surroundings, right? Maybe this asshole who just cut you off in traffic, maybe he just had a really bad day. You don't know what's going on in people's heads, like, why they're doing what they're doing. You see the effects of it and you just pass by each other. Sure, he just cut you for traffic and that was an asshole move, 'course, but you don't know his reasoning for it. Most of the time, it's going to be because he's late to work or something, right? Something avoidable, easy, but you never know. Maybe he's rushing his pregnant wife to the hospital, because she's going to give birth and he's gonna have to hurry.

ALYSSA: Mmhm. Yeah.

CYPRIAN: We just all, I think, can take a step back and just look at everything from a broader perspective. Sometimes we all just get so focused on our own perspective and start judging people, right? For their actions when we don't even know what drives them to do such things, right?

ALYSSA: Yeah, absolutely. So, we're now at the point in the story where Geralt had to come to the town, heard Stregobor's side of the story, heard Renfri's side of the story, and he's sitting on a decision. So, we're going to take a quick break on this cliffhanger. When we return, Cyprian and I will continue our discussion of "The Lesser Evil."

“Tidings from Toussaint”

[“Tidings from Toussaint” theme music by Bettina Campomanes]

LARS FROM WITCHERFLIX: Hey, it's Lars from Witcherflix and this is “Tidings from Toussaint.”

The news drought continues, but let's stay positive everyone. This can only mean that post-production is hard at work at the moment and busy like bees creating the first big trailer, a few new character promo pictures, or even the final show. So, let's keep our fingers crossed.

Anyway, I can still report about a few tiny, but interesting pieces of news.

Thanks to RedanianIntelligence we know that landscape artist Howard Weaver was recruited for the Witcher show. He is charge for the backdrops of the show. His previous work includes highly-acclaimed franchises like Game of Thrones, Star Wars, Batman, or Die Hard. It seems like Howard Weaver already created backdrops for screens that are set on places like Brokilon Forest or Vizima, the capital of Temeria.

According to his Spotlight CV, British actor Benjamin Chaffin will play a "Doppler Cahir" on the show. The real Cahir will be played by Eamon Farren. A doppler, by the way, is a shapeshifter who can transform into anyone he likes—if he has a similar body weight. This is quite interesting as a doppler isn't involved in Cahir's stories. Benjamin Chaffin is supposed to appear in Episode 5 and 6, which almost certainly adapts “The Last Wish” and “The Bounds of Reason.” All of this is so mysterious as it raises so many questions: Why doesn't Eamon Farren play a doppler version of himself? How does a doppler fit into the two short stories? Is this doppler actually named “Dudu?” What makes it even more curious is that Benjamin Chaffin deleted this entry again from his Spotlight CV. Well, we still have to wait and have to be patient for any more answers.

Moreover, RedanianIntelligence did some interesting work during the last two weeks. They have opened their archives and started a new series presenting footage from behind-the-scenes of the Witcher show including some never-before-seen pictures, such as pics of the beautiful armor from Cintra and Fort Monostar in Hungary, where several of the promo pics showing Henry Cavill as Geralt were shot.

So, that's it for this episode of “Tidings from Toussaint.” We'll talk again in two weeks when the next podcast is released. Until then, good luck on the path!

[“Tidings from Toussaint” theme music by Bettina Campomanes]

Discussion

ALYSSA: So, thank you so much for the update, Lars. Welcome back from the break. I'm here with Cyprian discussing the third short story from The Last Wish, "The Lesser Evil." So, we left off with Geralt having spoken separately to both Stregobor, the sorcerer, and Renfri, the exiled princess of Creyden and Stregobor's allegedly-cursed hunter. Both pleaded for Geralt to kill the other, telling him that killing the other would be "the lesser evil."

[Reading] Part V brings us to Caldemeyn's home where, over breakfast, Caldemeyn expresses disbelief that Renfri would leave in peace. He gossips to Geralt that some of her men were recognized from the Free Angren Company and from the massacre at Tridam, which Geralt hadn't heard of.

ALYSSA: Oh shit.

CYPRIAN: Yeah...

[Laughs]

ALYSSA: [Reading] So, Caldemeyn tells Geralt that three years ago, bandits hijacked a ferry at Tridam and began slaughtering the people on board one-by-one until the baron released their comrades from the dungeons. The baron faced exile or execution for his actions; some angry he waited so long to give in, others believing he shouldn't have negotiated at all. The baron argued he chose the lesser evil by releasing the bandits to save the people on the ferry. Geralt suddenly realizes that Renfri has lied to him about leaving Blaviken. By referencing the Tridam Ultimatum, she plans to murder people at the market until Stregobor surrenders. The witcher tries to get Caldemeyn to imprison the gang preventively and the alderman refuses, because of her letter of safe conduct. Geralt insists she has to be stopped now while the marketplace is empty, saying, "We have to take the lesser evil." Caldemeyn tries to stop Geralt unsuccessfully.

CYPRIAN: So, he stood his ground, er, regarding his morals. I mean, he told Renfri to basically… fuck off, right?

[Alyssa laughs]

CYPRIAN: "No, I'm–I'm not going to kill Stregobor for you and neither will I kill you for him. You can both just… piss off, right? Stop all this nonsense.” And this would actually be the best outcome, right? Let's just say Renfri had a change of mind and she would just forgive Stregobor, right? Erm, and just leave.

ALYSSA: Mmhm.

CYPRIAN: I think it's quite naive to think that–that she's just gonna leave.

ALYSSA: Mmhm.

CYPRIAN: I mean, she came here with a purpose.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

CYPRIAN: She's not just gonna change her mind. Yeah, let's talk about, um, this, um, ultimatum.

ALYSSA: The Tridam Ultimatum. Yeah. It's very similar to The Trolley Problem (article) or it is The Trolley Problem (video): You have one person on one track and five people on the other track and you have to decide what you're going to do. A lot of people think it's a very simple answer. But, when you look at who those people might be, when you look at the impact of a decision like that, a lot of people have a hard time choosing. So, this is The Witcher Universe's version of The Trolley Problem.

CYPRIAN: Yeah, I think it even goes deeper than that, because there's another layer to it. He gave into the demands, right? Of the gang.

ALYSSA: Yes.

CYPRIAN: One side of the story is, like, he gave in too late, right? He should have gave in, saved these people, and then another said he shouldn't have given in at all.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

CYPRIAN: Especially not this late, because now, what he has done, essentially, is he's shown, "Okay, with hostages you can get what you want," and now he has created the basis for other people to do the same. If you wouldn't have given in, like, they would have killed all these people, sure.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

CYPRIAN: But maybe, like, the logic behind it, I think, is they would have to kill all these people and then, what? They don't have any hostages, so they haven't accomplished anything. So, people see, like, you can't be messed with with hostages. You pretty much sacrifice these people for the sake of such a hostage crisis not happening again.

ALYSSA: Mmhm.

CYPRIAN: But then you have to ask yourself, "Is it worth it to sacrifice any people for that matter for something like this?" It's tough, right? [Chuckles] I'm glad I'm not the baron.

ALYSSA: [Laughs] Or Geralt as we'll get to.

CYPRIAN: Oh yeah.

ALYSSA: Rough.

[Reading] Part VI takes us to Blaviken market. Caldemeyn has been unsuccessful in preventing Geralt from going to confront Renfri. Geralt enters Blaviken's market alone where the gang is already waiting. Renfri's not with them, having gone to Stregobor's tower. After a brief, tense exchange, the gang attacks Geralt. He dispatches them quickly, causing chaos in the public square. Renfri arrives. She tells Geralt that Stregobor won't leave his tower even if she were to butcher entire towns, making her recreation of The Tridam Ultimatum moot. Surrounded by her dead comrades, she sees that Geralt has made his choice and now she makes hers. Reluctantly, Geralt fights Renfri, eventually slashing her across the thigh, killing her.

CYPRIAN: …Damn.

[Alyssa chuckles]

CYPRIAN: So, there we have it. She's dead. Everyone's dead.

[Laughs]

CYPRIAN: So, I think we can safely say, like, em, Geralt's moral high ground has gone out of the window. He has taken a choice. Yeah, what'd you think of it?

ALYSSA: There's a really interesting passage when Renfri first confronts Geralt, where she first enters the town square. And she says:

"You’ve made your choice. Are you sure it’s the right one?"

ALYSSA: Geralt says:

"This won’t be another Tridam."

ALYSSA: She tells him that it wouldn't have been because Stregobor doesn't really care about anyone, so it wouldn't have worked. Geralt says:

"Get out of here."

ALYSSA: And she says:

"No. You made a choice. Now it’s my turn."

ALYSSA: I think it's this really interesting stalemate, where every single character in this story—whether it's Caldemeyn or Renfri or Stregobor or Geralt himself—doesn't want to make a move, unless it's reactive to something that someone else is about to do.

CYPRIAN: Right.

ALYSSA: They're kind of dancing around the status quo, just waiting for someone to break it before they react to it.

CYPRIAN: Yeah, yeah.

ALYSSA: I guess I wonder, like, when is it an individual's responsibility to step up and to be responsible for the community-at-large? Should Caldemeyn have done something or was the letter of conduct a very valid thing to hold him back? Isn't there anything Renfri could have done? Is there anything Stregobor could have done? And then Geralt, specifically, at the center of this ultimatum between Renfri and Stregobor, should he, as an individual, have done something sooner?

CYPRIAN: Yeah. Okay. Well, let's see. I mean—

ALYSSA: So much to unpack!

[Laughs]

CYPRIAN: It is, it is. But that's exciting, right?

ALYSSA: Mmhm.

CYPRIAN: Okay. So, I think Geralt is fucked. I mean, look, I think Geralt should have been more... erm, how do I phrase this in English? I think he should have stood his ground regarding his moral values, because he didn't. He just rushed out and killed the gang. The point of the alderman, Caldemeyn... the mayor. Let's call him the mayor.

[Alyssa chuckles]

CYPRIAN: His point was, okay, sure. It would be tragedy for all these people to die, right? But they haven't done anything yet.

ALYSSA: Exactly.

CYPRIAN: So, can we jump into it like that? Especially with them having this letter from the king that basically grants them immunity. He doesn't want to, like, get shit from the king, right? Because his head is on the line. So, I mean, you can understand his point. But then on the other hand, especially Renfri, she tells him there are two people who can, like, prevent all this, right?

ALYSSA: Mmhm.

CYPRIAN: Or choose “the lesser evil” or whatever. It's, ah, Stregobor and Geralt. What I'm thinking to myself is, like, "No, it's not Geralt," because it's actually not his responsibility, I think, in my eyes. He essentially has nothing to do with it.

ALYSSA: Right.

CYPRIAN: I mean, he just came to this town; he didn't [know] any of this. He just wanted to make some coin and fuck off, right?

[Alyssa chuckles]

CYPRIAN: I mean, it's her revenge crusade. Just, erm, hunting Stregobor down for… God knows how long. It's her revenge, like, Stregobor, of course, has a problem, because he doesn't want to get killed.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

CYPRIAN: Interesting point, also, like, he's a mage, but he, apparently, isn't a battle mage or whatever. Like, he–he doesn't have great fighting capabilities.

ALYSSA: Right.

CYPRIAN: I mean, if this would be Yennefer or Triss or Fringilla or whoever, right? They would just destroy Renfri, right? [Wouldn't] even be a fight. What–what did he say? He's, like, ah, focused on illusions and weather?

ALYSSA: Yeah.

[Chuckles]

ALYSSA: Not a very good person to have in your corner during a battle.

[Laughs]

CYPRIAN: Yeah, yeah, I know, right? So, what I think Renfri is doing: she's just, like, taking her responsibility. She's just putting it on Geralt's shoulders.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

CYPRIAN: It's ultimately her decision. She is driving all of this with her wish for revenge. Again, if she would have just backed out, if she would just walk away, everything would be fine. Erm, but she is... doesn't want to give up on that at all. So, actually, she's responsible for all that happens. Not Geralt, in any way.

ALYSSA: Right.

CYPRIAN: That's my point, I guess.

ALYSSA: Yeah, we definitely see, like, Full-Frontal Bad Luck Geralt™ in this whole story. Like, nothing works out for him, the poor guy.

CYPRIAN: Yeah.

ALYSSA: This is now the third short story that we are watching him fight. But, the first time we're really seeing him get into it with humans. In "The Witcher," he was fighting the striga. "A Grain of Truth," this is with the vampire, Vereena. And now we're here and we learn that he doesn't fight humans, er, at least not unless he's provoked. But he doesn't go on contracts.

CYPRIAN: Yeah.

ALYSSA: It comes down to him being dragged into this thing that he doesn't really have any business in and then making it his business.

CYPRIAN: I know, right?

ALYSSA: Yeah, for better or for worse. Or for worse—just for worse! None of this is good.

[Laughs]

CYPRIAN: None of his good, right. That's–that's exactly the point, you know. And on the other hand.

[Chuckles]

CYPRIAN: Let's go back again. What's the breaking point is, actually, Geralt, kind of. All the time, he was like, "No, it's none of my business. It's your problem, right? I'm not going to choose anything here—"

ALYSSA: Yeah.

CYPRIAN: "—I'm not going to meddle in this."

ALYSSA: Mmhm.

CYPRIAN: But then, when he realizes this ultimatum, he rushes out. Even after the–the mayor tells him not to. He chooses, basically, right?

ALYSSA: Right.

CYPRIAN: And he just abandoned the morals he claimed, right? And he just goes out and–and confronts them. And, sure, he gets fired upon with, erm, this... crossbow, right? That's it. He gets fired upon and, sure, kills them.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

CYPRIAN: He chose—in his mind—the lesser evil, which was killing these people. Now, is the interesting question, because his decision was based on this ultimatum. If–if he isn't going to step in, there's going to be a massacre, but then Renfri comes in after all her comrades are killed, and pretty much takes this basis away from him, right? She tells him, "I just came here to… not kill all these people, because I talked with Stregobor and this wouldn't have worked. He laughed at me, he wouldn't come out at all."

ALYSSA: Right.

CYPRIAN: So, she just actually took his basis away from him. So, pretty much makes his choice for nothing. These people wouldn't have died anyway.

ALYSSA: Mmhm. And it brings about an interesting aspect of Renfri's character, the specific point that you mentioned. She says—er, at least she claims, we don't know if she would or wouldn't—but, she claims that she would have just left at that point. So, she wouldn't have resorted to violence if it wasn't, in her eyes necessary, which I think makes her a very interesting character in that… she's been vilified this whole time into believing that she's… just completely bloodthirsty. And then you see her make this decision, or about to make this decision. She wouldn't have resorted to violence if it wouldn't have gotten an answer from him.

CYPRIAN: And now is–now is the real question. Do you actually believe her?

ALYSSA: Ooh, that is a good question. I don't know. That is a really good question!

CYPRIAN: Yeah, that's—I was waiting to drop that one.

[Laughs]

ALYSSA: Wow, rude.

[Laughs]

ALYSSA: I'm so upset you didn't put it in my notes.

[They laugh]

CYPRIAN: Seriously, I think this is pretty much the breaking point right here.

ALYSSA: Mmhm.

CYPRIAN: Was this a bluff? Look at this from this perspective: she went out to talk to Stregobor, right? Tell him, like, "Okay, listen, I have my guys back there. We're going to kill everyone until you come out." And he said… we don't know what he said. So, he said something. She's coming back and what she sees—she walks in there and she sees all of her comrades dead, Geralt standing there with a–with the bloody sword.

ALYSSA: Right. So, now she has no backup.

CYPRIAN: Right. What she's going to do, right now? Is she gonna, like, come in here and, like, "Oh hey, Geralt. Yeah, I just came back to kill all these people." She doesn't have any backup. She sees what he's capable of. He just killed six men on his own.

ALYSSA: Right.

CYPRIAN: He's gonna handle her. It's like a game of poker, really. Like, she's–she's bluffing right now. She's saying, "Okay, well, this doesn't work. You can actually go, because I didn't want to kill these people anyway." So, she's just trying to, maybe, defuse the situation with this bluff, telling him we wouldn't have killed them anyway, because it wouldn't have worked. So, why are we fighting, right?" But this doesn't work, because Geralt doesn't back off. And then, in the end, neither does she.

ALYSSA: Right.

CYPRIAN: We don't really know, but this is an interesting thing to keep in mind. We don't actually know and Stregobor, without spoiling again, doesn't answer that question anyway, so.

ALYSSA: Geralt actually… almost stops himself. He's very, very hesitant to fight her.

CYPRIAN: I know, right?

ALYSSA: Because he tells her that, like, "If I fight you, this is it," and she accepts her death before they even start. She definitely seems to, you know, really give it her all, but… it's not enough. The moment when she dies, she tries to get Geralt to come to her and to, like, hold her. And then when she dies, it turns out she drops a small dagger, so she probably intended on killing him as she was dying.

CYPRIAN: Yeah.

ALYSSA: Ooh. And then, so, after she dies, we get to, like, the last bit of the chapter where Stregobor arrives. Like, he comes puttering out of his tower wanting to collect Renfri's body for an autopsy.

[Reading] So, he witnessed everything from a crystal ball in the safety of his tower and a bystander threatens to kill Stregobor if he touches the corpse and Stregobor leaves announcing he'll leave Blaviken and return to Kovir for good. So, a crowd gathers and begins to stone the witcher. And the scene's interrupted by Caldemeyn who stops the crowd's retribution. The alderman confronts Geralt about his actions, asking if this—this bloodshed—is the lesser evil he believed to be necessary. Geralt, uncertain and entirely alone, is banished from Blaviken and told never to come back.

CYPRIAN: You know, the feeling I got from reading this part in the book was actually… we come back to this whole bluff thing. This is where it clicked in my mind.

ALYSSA: Mmhm.

CYPRIAN: Like, hey, maybe this was a bluff because Stregobor says he saw all this in his crystal ball. I think it's safe to assume that he saw the whole fight with Geralt and the six guys as well. And now it would be so obscure to imagine that he saw this happening on the market square while he was negotiating with Renfri? And then he saw Geralt basically, like, kicking everyone's ass and just Renfri's gang just dying, right?

ALYSSA: Yeah.

CYPRIAN: And he saw, like, she has no backup. Like, is she gonna kill everyone on her own? No, she's not going to make that. And then he, like, laughed at her and said, "Oh, yeah, I'm not going to come out, blah, blah," because he knew that her backup was gone, like, Geralt pretty much solved the problem. And he could easily, like, reject her ultimatum or whatever, because, you know, she wouldn't have had the means to do it.

ALYSSA: Yeah, that's probably a really accurate observation. There is a quote from him. As soon as he, kind of, paddles into the square, he says, "What slaughter!" Yeah, you're right. It's–he probably did realize what was happening and what Geralt's choice meant for him.

CYPRIAN: Yeah. Looking at these different perspectives from all the people, right? Renfri didn't know that he had, like, a magic ball and she didn't know what was happening on the marketplace before she got there, right?

ALYSSA: Mmhm.

CYPRIAN: I mean, sure, one of her gang members said in the beginning: yeah, Renfri, she told them that [Geralt] would attack or whatever.

ALYSSA: Right.

CYPRIAN: Also, Stregobor rushes in, like, "This is all done, like, it was all part of a plan! Okay, Geralt, get up. Let's-let's get her on the wagon and let's go." Like, he knew everything [that] was going on and Geralt just… was standing there, like, he couldn't believe what was happening, I guess. And, ehm, and the interesting thing is, like, they don't do the autopsy, right?

ALYSSA: No, the villagers don't let Stregobor even touch the body at all. And he just, kind of, lets the whole thing go because he'd rather leave with his life than risk it even getting an autopsy.

CYPRIAN: Wait, was it the villagers or was it Geralt who told him no?

ALYSSA: It said that a villager or a man that Geralt didn't know pulled out his sword and threatened Stregobor.

CYPRIAN: Okay, really? Because, er, that's actually interesting, because, again, I have the Polish version here and in the Polish version, it, kind of, implies—at least to my ears—it was Geralt himself, but it was like a different voice. You know what I mean? Like, someone else talking through him, right?

ALYSSA: Oh, I didn't catch that in English translation.

CYPRIAN: I'm not sure. I mean, this is just a feeling I got. Geralt, kind of, being an observer to his actions–his own actions, right? He's just, like, out-of-control and he's just saying, "Don't touch her," and everything. Maybe because he knew her side of the story, right? And knew her reasoning. But, anyways, we don't get the autopsy, so we don't get proof. Is she monster? Is she not?

ALYSSA: Yeah, I mean, that's really interesting, because I didn't pick that up from the English translation at all. There is a note—and we didn't really talk about this much in the episode—but, Stregobor, when he's describing the girls, he mentions that right before their death, they show the gift of clairvoyance. And when Geralt talks to Renfri alone in his room at Caldemeyn's, she has a moment where she falls into a predictive trance.

CYPRIAN: Yeah.

ALYSSA: Again, like, I wonder if that might be another note where we see this kind of biological proof where she could be what Stregobor accuses her of being, which is, like, a monster and a mutant and something cursed. You're right, we, like, really don't know for sure.

CYPRIAN: Yeah, yeah.

ALYSSA: And Geralt is very uncertain if he made the right choice and that he, kind of, sees himself reacting in a way that feels almost out-of-body.

CYPRIAN: Yeah, exactly. Wow, you're good with words.

[They laugh]

CYPRIAN: Yeah, that describes it quite well, what I picked up reading this, like, again, the Polish version. I don't know the English one. But—

ALYSSA: Yeah.

CYPRIAN: It's crazy, right? I mean, again, I think Stregobor's willingness to do the autopsy, right? He actually even rushes Geralt to do it. Like, "Hey, let's go. I'll–I'll show you, right?" He's so sure of it.

ALYSSA: Mmhm.

CYPRIAN: Speaks volumes about it. He seems convinced that she's a monster. I mean—

ALYSSA: Yeah, but we'll never know.

CYPRIAN: Yeah, I guess so.

ALYSSA: And neither will Geralt, really. So, I think it's one of those things that we end up sharing with the character where, either way—whether he went with Stregobor, whether he went with Renfri, whether he acted or didn't—we'll never know what the "right choice" was and if he made it.

CYPRIAN: Yeah, definitely. And you can even argue, like, is there a right choice? If he would have killed Stregobor, maybe that would have worked, maybe it didn't. I mean, I think Renfri said to him, "Yeah, he wouldn't let you in anyway." God knows what would happen if Geralt would just walk away, right? He would just actually leave the city, like, we don't know what would have happened. Especially with this whole bluff thing in mind. Stregobor didn't see, like, Geralt killing all these people because he left. Yeah, maybe he would have turned himself—er, ah, turned himself in like to the police. No, like—

[Laughs]

CYPRIAN: —to Renfri, you know. Um, handed himself over or maybe they would have slaughtered all the–all the people in the village. That's kind of the beauty of this ending, right? We don't know. It's… everyone's guess, right?

ALYSSA: I mean, even though we don't know what might have been the right or wrong answer and the right or wrong action, we do see very clearly what Geralt's values are, I think. And how they, kind of, manifest in his world and in his universe. And—

[Laughs]

ALYSSA: just as, kind of, like, a little nugget for everyone who hasn't read the books yet, because both Cyprian and I have. This argument on neutrality comes back in the saga, like, three, four books from now and he has a view on it then. He has a really specific view on neutrality then, which he then imparts to Ciri, but I feel like this is, kind of, the birthplace of that view. Where he has such a strong value—or he believes he does—’til it's then challenged.

CYPRIAN: Right, right. I think that's a really good point: “‘til it’s challenged.” Because you could, kind of, argue, like, he breaks under the pressure.

ALYSSA: Uh-huh.

CYPRIAN: He–he declared that he wasn't going to do anything. He's not going to meddle in this. And then from Geralt's perspective, he could expect a massacre, right?

ALYSSA: Yeah.

CYPRIAN: —on a big scale. Like, I think it's an easy choice. So, again, you can pretty much understand every character's choice in this story. You can understand why they did what they did. If it's good or bad, that's up for discussion, but that's why it's one of my favorite stories and why it's so well-written.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

CYPRIAN: Again, you can understand everyone's motives in here.

ALYSSA: Absolutely. I find it really interesting that you or even any of these characters, you can claim a characteristic about yourself or an aspect of identity or a value, but it doesn't really mean anything until it's put up to the test and until you can actually claim right to it.

ALYSSA: You can say you're courageous, but then if you end up in a situation where you end up being cowardly, it doesn't really mean much, right? Like, so, no matter how you view yourself, it's an understanding of, like, I think, what you've done to earn it and I think that that's where Geralt's values come in and he says he's neutral and his actions, up to a point, support that. And then, it just completely shatters.

CYPRIAN: Maybe it shatters, but then again, maybe, because of his declared neutrality, right? You could argue it for the point that he just did it to save the civilian. The "neutral people" who doesn't have anything to do with it. Like, he didn't kill all of the gang for Stregobor, right? Because he has to. No. He did it because he thought they were going to kill civilians.

ALYSSA: Right.

CYPRIAN: So, maybe he didn't abandon his moral principles.

ALYSSA: Yeah.

CYPRIAN: We're going… quite deep in here.

[They chuckle]

ALYSSA: I mean, you can definitely argue that even though his actions of killing people are seemingly—from the outside—evil, his intention behind them, like you said, can you really define it as bad or as evil, um, or something to be vilified, if it really does come down to an intent to help? Who knows?

[Chuckles]

CYPRIAN: Right, right. But then again, Stregobor said, I think, in the end, to the common man standing on this marketplace, Geralt just rushed out and killed everyone. And that's it, right? They don't know any of the background. And they don't know anything. They just see a madman coming in and killing everyone, right? I mean, there's so many perspectives to this, I think we could, erm, record another episode.

[They laugh]

ALYSSA: So, that's it for our show today. Cyprian, thank you so much for joining us for this episode and thank you to our community for listening! So, Cyprian will be back next episode in which we'll discuss Geralt's first brush with destiny in the short story, "A Question of Price."

Outro

[Breakfast in Beauclair theme music by MojoFilter Media]

ALYSSA: Thanks for joining us at the breakfast table! For show notes, transcripts of each episode, and a complete list of our social platforms and listening services, head over to breakfastinbeauclair.com.

Breakfast in Beauclair is created by Alyssa from GoodMorhen. It’s hosted by Alyssa with the “Tidings from Toussaint” News Segment by Lars from WitcherFlix. The show is edited by Alyssa with the Breakfast in Beauclair theme by MojoFilter Media and the “Tidings from Toussaint” theme by Bettina Campomanes.

Breakfast in Beauclair is produced by Alyssa in New York City with Rangel, Gary Watts who favors Time of Contempt, The Owner of the Churlish Porpoise, coolguyhenry, and Arix the Godling.

Special thanks to Cyprian for joining us for this episode and our international hanza for their support.

Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo 
Editor: Krizia Casil

 

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